1
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
LAW DIVISION - HUDSON COUNTY
2 DOCKET NO. HUD-L-3520-04
PETER deVRIES and TIMOTHY
3 CARTER
TRANSCRIPT
4 OF PROCEEDING
Plaintiffs,
5 TRIAL DAY 6
Vs.
6
THE TOWN OF SECAUCUS,
7 Defendant.
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HUDSON COUNTY COURTHOUSE
9 595 Newark Avenue
Jersey City, New Jersey 07306
10 Monday, May 19, 2008
Commencing 9:20 a.m.
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B E F O R E:
12 HONORABLE BARBARA A. CURRAN
13 TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, CSR
LICENSE NO. XIO1983
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20 SCHULMAN, WIEGMANN & ASSOCIATES
21 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
22 216 STELTON ROAD
23 SUITE C-1
24 PISCATAWAY, NEW JERSEY 08854
25 (732) - 752 - 7800
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3 SMITH MULLIN, ESQS.
4 Attorneys for the Plaintiffs
5 240 Claremont Avenue
6 Montclair, New Jersey 07042
7 BY: NEIL MULLIN, ESQ.
8 NANCY ERIKA SMITH, ESQ.
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10 PIRO, ZINNA, CIFELLI, PARIS & GENITEMPO, ESQS.
11 Attorneys for the Defendants
12 360 Passaic Avenue
13 Nutley, New Jersey 07110
14 BY: DANIEL R. BEVERE, ESQ.
15 DAVID M. PARIS, ESQ.
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1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS DIRECT VOIR CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
3 DIRE
4 PETER DEVRIES
5 By: Mr. Mullin 6 176, 190
6 By: Mr. Paris 132 179
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8 WITNESS DIRECT VOIR CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
9 DIRE
10 DEE BARDINI
11 By: Ms. Smith 122 130
12 By: Mr. Bevere 127
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14 E X H I B I T S
15 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
16 (No exhibits marked.)
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1 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
2 approaching.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
4 MS. HAWKS: You're welcome.
5 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
6 into the courtroom.)
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Good morning,
8 Ladies and Gentlemen. We are back on the record
9 in the matter of deVries and Carter versus
10 Secaucus, Docket Number 3520 of 2004 term.
11 I am going to ask counsel,
12 please, to put their appearances on the record
13 for you to begin the week. On behalf of the
14 plaintiffs?
15 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Judge.
16 Good morning, Ladies and
17 Gentlemen. Neil Mullin, Nancy Erika Smith.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. And the
19 defense?
20 MR. BEVERE: Good morning -- I'm
21 sorry, you can do it, Dave.
22 MR. PARIS: Good morning. Dave
23 Paris and Dan Bevere, Piro, Zinna, Cifelli &
24 Paris for the Town.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. And
5
1 thank you very much for being here. We
2 appreciate it. I hope you all had a good
3 weekend. And we're going to continue this
4 morning with the plaintiffs' case.
5 Mr. Mullin.
6 MR. MULLIN: Yes, Your Honor, I
7 call Peter deVries to the stand.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
9 MS. HAWKS: Raise your right hand,
10 please; and place your left hand on the Bible.
11 P E T E R d e V R I E S is duly sworn by a
12 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey
13 and testifies under oath as follows:
14 MS. HAWKS: Thank you. For the
15 record, please state your full name and spell
16 your last name, please.
17 THE WITNESS: Peter deVries. It's
18 d-e capital V-r-i-e-s.
19 MS. HAWKS: Thank you.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
21 Please be seated. You are under oath. All your
22 testimony must be truthful and accurate to the
23 best of your ability. Do you understand?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir. If
6
1 you can move a little close to that microphone,
2 if you are comfortable. Thank you. Thank you.
3 And please give us your address for the record.
4 THE WITNESS: 260 Harrison Avenue,
5 Apartment 404, Jersey City, New Jersey. 07304.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
7 Mr. Mullin, your witness.
8 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Judge.
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
10 Q Good morning, Peter.
11 A Good morning.
12 Q Maybe we should start with your
13 eye. One of your eyes drifts, right?
14 A Yes, yes, my left eye.
15 Q And what's the story on that?
16 A I was born with it, I guess. It's been
17 the bane of my existence. The -- I had a number
18 of operations when I was a child. I started
19 wearing glasses -- the earliest pictures of me
20 are of a little child with glasses. And I
21 assume, from quizzing my parents, that I had
22 some type of a muscle problem here. And
23 basically what happens is my left eye does not
24 turn out. And I was -- I have gotten used to
25 it. I carry -- you know, it's not an impediment
7
1 in my life. But as a child I was extremely
2 self-conscious about it.
3 Q Okay.
4 A I had an operation. Oh, when was it? I
5 was in my 30s, I think, already in Toronto from
6 one of the best -- he used to fly to New York to
7 do surgery, one of the best eye surgeons in
8 Toronto. And he discovered when he went in
9 there was nothing he could do. He said there is
10 no muscle there. So what happened is anyone's
11 guess.
12 Q Thank you. When did you meet Tim
13 Carter?
14 A In March of 1986.
15 Q Where did you meet?
16 A We met at a function. We were in
17 Manhattan, a social function.
18 Q Okay. And did the relationship
19 grow -- did a relationship grow?
20 A Yes, it did. It did.
21 Q Did you move in together at some
22 point?
23 A We started dating; and then, within a
24 matter -- a number of months, yes, we moved in
25 together.
8
1 Q Where were you living back then?
2 A Manhattan.
3 Q Okay. And did you share your
4 lives together as time went on?
5 A Yes. It was a studio apartment; and yes,
6 we did share our lives together. We, you
7 know -- Tim had his friends, and I had my
8 friends. And we tried to mix them as much as
9 possible. At that time also it was sort of the
10 peak of the AIDS crisis, and many people we knew
11 were dying. So, actually, a large part of our
12 initial years together where a lot of the time
13 we were taking care of someone who was dying.
14 And at some point we also volunteered
15 at Roosevelt Hospital. Roosevelt Hospital had
16 a -- a whole floor dedicated to AIDS patients,
17 which was new at the -- a new concept at the
18 time. And they needed people just to come in
19 and socialize and, you know, interact with the
20 patients.
21 Q Did you bring Tim into your
22 family, into your extended family?
23 A Yes, yes. In addition to taking
24 vacations together, I introduced Tim to members
25 of my family. Being situated in New York, a lot
9
1 of my brothers or their spouses would
2 periodically come through New York on their way
3 to somewhere; and so that made -- we would meet
4 for dinner. Once in a while one of them would
5 actually sleep over, so there would be three of
6 us in a studio. And -- and gradually Tim met
7 almost all my brothers and their spouses and
8 many of their children.
9 Q How about your mother; did he meet
10 your mother?
11 A He didn't meet my mother, but he knew her
12 very well from telephone conversations.
13 Q Where did your mother live?
14 A My mother lived in Toronto or near
15 Toronto. And my -- Tim -- Tim and I were
16 together when my father died in 1995, and I
17 think it was maybe sort of after -- no, it was
18 before that too, but that he developed a
19 relationship with my mother. We were living in
20 Minneapolis, and much of it was conducted by
21 phone. It got to the point where she would --
22 her cards that arrived at the house would be
23 addressed to both of us. It was never openly
24 acknowledged that we were a gay couple and --
25 but she would always talk about my friend --
10
1 "your friend Tim" were the words that she would
2 use.
3 Q You mentioned Minneapolis. When
4 you were in Minneapolis was Tim working out
5 there?
6 A Yes, he did.
7 Q What -- what was he doing?
8 A Yes, he -- he -- when we first got there
9 he finished off part of a degree at school
10 there. That didn't take too long. And then he
11 got a job in the parochial school system. He
12 was -- I don't know too many of the details. He
13 has explained them to me many times. He was the
14 director of an evening educational program.
15 Q Was that a full-time or part-time
16 job?
17 A No, no, it was definitely full-time.
18 Q And how long did he hold that job
19 while he was out in Minneapolis?
20 A I would say two, three, four years. We
21 were there for six years.
22 Q Did you handle the -- your
23 family's, that is, yours and Tim's, finances?
24 A Yes, I did, yeah.
25 Q Do you know how much Tim made a
11
1 year roughly in that -- in that position that
2 you have just described, how much he earned?
3 A I'd say about 40,000. I used to do the
4 tax returns.
5 Q Did he hold that job up until you
6 moved to Secaucus?
7 A No, he -- he had left the parochial
8 school system, and he was working for -- I think
9 it was called the World Council of Churches. He
10 had something to do with the relocation of
11 refugees. Even in Minnesota took in a fair
12 number of refugees. I don't know if they were
13 political, but they were definitely -- they were
14 from troubled countries.
15 Q Was that a full-time job, as well?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And was that at the same salary or
18 something less or greater?
19 A I would say it was in the same range,
20 maybe a little less, you know.
21 Q By "a little less," do you happen
22 to know?
23 A No, between 20 and 30, 30 -- maybe over
24 30. No.
25 Q Okay. And then let's talk about
12
1 your education.
2 A I have a BA in English from a small
3 school called Calvin College in Grand Rapids,
4 Michigan.
5 Q Okay. And let's -- when did you
6 get that degree?
7 A 1972.
8 Q How old are you, Peter?
9 A Fifty-nine. I will be 60 in one month.
10 Q Let's talk about your work -- your
11 work history, maybe going back to after you got
12 out of college.
13 A After -- okay. After I got out of
14 college I -- I am Canadian. Actually, I started
15 off being Dutch when I was three or -- I was
16 born in the Netherlands. And when I was about
17 three years old my parents immigrated to Canada
18 with six of -- six of their eight boys that they
19 ultimately had. And -- Toronto.
20 I graduated from Calvin College, and
21 went back to Canada and moved to Toronto. And I
22 landed a job with one of the large publishing
23 firms. And I ended up on a medical newspaper,
24 writing for them as writing medical news. This
25 was -- these -- this involves my entire career,
13
1 so the -- the stuff that I wrote was oriented
2 for physicians. These were publications that go
3 out to physicians. And -- and it was physician
4 education.
5 And in that -- the job in Toronto, what
6 they did was they would send us to medical
7 meetings. So I was constantly on the road. We
8 covered all the major medical meetings in North
9 America. And I would come back, and I would do
10 10 to 15 stories. You know, your responsibility
11 was to go out there, to pick up the latest hot
12 medical news and come back and report it in --
13 interview the involved physicians and report it.
14 And gradually that led to a job in New
15 York City. At these medical meetings you'd run
16 into other medical press. And I ran into one --
17 an editor of this magazine called Emergency
18 Medicine in New York City. And he asked if I
19 was interested in moving to New York. And I
20 said, "Of course."
21 And I did a couple of trial pieces for
22 him, and he helped -- he hired me and initially
23 helped arrange for the H1 visas because I was
24 not under any of the -- what do they call the
25 groups that get preference for immigration? I
14
1 was not counted as -- as one of those, so I
2 had -- we had to do it, you know. And so 1982 I
3 moved to the United States. And I've been in
4 the United States since then.
5 And after a couple of years with
6 Emergency Medicine I moved to another magazine,
7 where I spent many, many years. And it was
8 called Hospital Practice. And it really had
9 nothing to do with hospitals. What we did was
10 clinical review articles, much of the same,
11 except this time what I would do is I would be
12 sent out to interview all the vice president --
13 or the -- you know, the heads of the departments
14 usually. You pick the top -- what they did was
15 they picked the top-notch person in a particular
16 disease or condition and they would send the
17 staff out to interview them for four or five
18 hours, on basis of that write a clinical review
19 article, which carried the doctor's name, not my
20 name. So it was ghost writing. And --
21 Q So you were actually involved in
22 writing the articles at that point?
23 A Initially, yes, yes.
24 Q Okay. Go ahead. I want to take
25 you up through your career.
15
1 A In the '80s, I think. Anyways, I stayed
2 there; and I gradually worked my way up the
3 ladder. And for the last -- I think it was
4 sometime in 1993 I was appointed managing editor
5 of the magazine, which, in effect, was -- or it
6 became -- once I got my feet wet, it became my
7 responsibility to put out the magazine every
8 month. And I worked directly under the
9 executive editor.
10 And so I was basically in charge of the
11 staff that was involved, which, at its peak,
12 could, you know, be 12, 13, 14 people. And this
13 is basically the editorial staff, the art staff
14 and the production staff because I had to
15 coordinate everything to get the -- to get the
16 magazine out every month.
17 In 1995 the magazine was sold to
18 McGraw-Hill, and they moved it to Minnesota.
19 This accounts for our trip to Minneapolis.
20 And --
21 Q What was the circulation of that
22 magazine?
23 A At that time it was -- it was approaching
24 or over 200,000. It -- they fudged with it
25 because, you know -- but it waved back and forth
16
1 around the 200,000 line.
2 Q Who were the main readership?
3 Were they doctors or --
4 A Internists, which are -- it's not family
5 physicians, but it's the -- many of them operate
6 as family physicians, but they -- these people
7 who call themselves, "internists." Internal
8 medicine.
9 Q What was the name of the company
10 that was paying your paychecks during this --
11 while you were working for this magazine?
12 A First it was a Toronto company called
13 McClean-Hunter. It was a publishing firm. And
14 after that it was McGraw-Hill. When it was
15 bought by McGraw-Hill, McGraw-Hill was
16 determined to move it. And what they did was
17 they approached the executive editor and they
18 approached me. They asked us if the two of us
19 were willing to move to Minneapolis. And we put
20 our heads together, and we agreed to go. They
21 let go the rest of the staff, and they moved us
22 to Minneapolis. And for the next six -- until
23 2001, yes, September 2001 I was managing editor.
24 Still the same job, except it was in
25 Minneapolis.
17
1 Q And can you tell the jury what
2 your duties were as manager editor in
3 Minneapolis --
4 A Okay.
5 Q -- during those six years?
6 A If we start with the basics, it's, you
7 know, the editorial product, as the salespeople
8 like to call it, making sure that the editorial
9 content was completed and got in on time. This
10 either would involve the staff, who was writing
11 what, keep, say, articles scheduled for such and
12 such a month, say, "How's it going," free-lance
13 writers, if we had any.
14 There were also -- we had a number
15 interspersed; there were many small columns
16 written by doctors. Hounding them for their
17 monthly contribution. Then editing all of it.
18 I was -- I wasn't the only one who edited it,
19 but I was ultimately responsible. If a mistake
20 appeared, I took responsibility.
21 Q Describe the editing process, even
22 though -- I want it just for the record. I'm
23 sure the jury is aware of it, but let's get it
24 for the record. What is the -- what is the
25 process you undertook to edit?
18
1 A Okay. The editing process is you --
2 first you read the article. And one of the most
3 important things you do is you identify what I
4 call the "holes," the missing pieces. And you
5 develop an instinct for it. Even though this is
6 medicine and I'm not a physician, but you know
7 when something is missing.
8 Particularly physician-written pieces
9 had a lot of holes in them because they would
10 just make leaps of assumption that, you know,
11 oh, people will know this. And they would --
12 you know, they would jump from point A to point
13 F, you know; and there would be a huge gap. So
14 some -- you would have to make sure that got
15 filled in either by asking the physician or
16 doing it yourself or having someone else do it.
17 And then pulling together all the
18 artwork that went with the article, anywhere
19 from 10 to 12 pieces, which could be graphs that
20 had to be drawn up. They could be X-rays.
21 Heaven forbid if you printed an X-ray upside
22 down or backwards. I actually learned a little,
23 little bit how to read an X-ray. And we -- you
24 know, and because it did -- fortunately, I
25 didn't do it; but before my time it happened
19
1 that they printed an X-ray upside down.
2 Because, you know, you'd get -- these doctors
3 would laugh at you.
4 And -- and then work with the art
5 department in executing the art. And then the
6 production department in getting it out.
7 Q To ask you maybe the obvious, did
8 this text that you were editing involve big,
9 long medical terms?
10 A Yes, oh, yes, yes. I mean, we did not
11 talk down to them; we spoke their language.
12 Q How did you learn the medical
13 terms, or how did you come to grips with the
14 medical terminology?
15 A Over time you gradually -- you learned.
16 It's jargon, so -- you know, the medical jargon.
17 Over time you -- gradually you learned the
18 medical jargon. And it just becomes, you know,
19 a second language to it. A lot of it's
20 unnecessary. I mean, lawyers have their own
21 jargon, as well, you know. And -- however, it
22 gives an air of -- of highbrow, you know,
23 whatever. They will not -- you know, they use
24 it. That's what we were stuck with, and that's
25 what we used.
20
1 Q So you continued in that managing
2 editor position at McGraw-Hill in Minneapolis,
3 right?
4 A Yes. Advertising started going down in
5 the last couple of years, and that was mainly --
6 I don't know if you remember, in the -- when
7 ads -- ads for drugs began to appear on TV, you
8 know. And that really cut -- you know how
9 expensive they are. I don't know how much our
10 ads were, but they do not approach what a TV
11 commercial -- that began to cut into these print
12 magazines. And many of them -- not many -- you
13 know, some of them began to fall by the wayside.
14 Our advertising was dropping. It was a matter
15 of, you know, just waiting for the -- for the
16 day that they would fold.
17 Q As a managing editor did you have
18 any responsibility for finances or budget?
19 A To the extent that I had to make sure
20 that the editorial budget, not counting
21 salaries, but the editorial budget, that I met
22 that, yes. Okay. The art director, of course,
23 she was in charge of her art budget.
24 Q Were you aware of how much the
25 company paid towards your health insurance while
21
1 you were -- while you had these financial
2 responsibilities at this job in Minneapolis?
3 A They paid, oh, I'd say 80 or 90 percent.
4 Later it changed a bit as I moved -- when I
5 moved back here.
6 Q Do you know how -- what that came
7 to a month? While you were in Minneapolis as
8 managing editor what did McGraw-Hill pay toward
9 your medical coverage?
10 A Oh, I would say easily, if I -- if I
11 took -- look at easily 800 to a thousand a
12 month, okay.
13 Q While you were managing editor did
14 you have responsibility for production of the
15 magazine, anything on the production end? Did
16 you have to interface with the production
17 people?
18 A Oh, I -- I had to interface with the --
19 yes, with the production people because every
20 month there would be arguments about the
21 placement of the ads. We had to be very
22 careful. You could not place a drug ad in an
23 article or near an article that mentioned that
24 drug. I mean, we couldn't look whorish.
25 Q So --
22
1 A And that would lead -- you know, and we
2 would have our lead article; and they would have
3 sold ads. They sold ads on, you know, first
4 quarter of the book; or they would even -- even
5 narrower than that. And that would lead to
6 conflicts, and somehow we'd have to --
7 Q At some point did you leave this
8 job you have been talking about in Minneapolis
9 and take a job in Secaucus?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And can you tell us the
12 circumstances?
13 A Yes, the last year -- the last year I was
14 there I began sending out feelers. And I
15 contacted someone I knew at Thomson Health Care
16 in Secaucus. And I said, "Helen, do you know of
17 any jobs?"
18 She said, "I have got one. Would you
19 like to come?"
20 I said, "I would love to."
21 And I flew down there and was
22 interviewed and, you know, by her and her
23 superiors and the human resources. And it was a
24 done deal. I -- you know, I was going back
25 there.
23
1 Q So you took a job in Secaucus?
2 A Yes, yes.
3 Q And Tim has already testified
4 about your move to Secaucus. Can you tell us
5 what company you were working for and what your
6 job title was in Secaucus?
7 A Okay. What happened was I had -- they --
8 of course, they want you immediately; and so
9 I -- before -- we were -- we owned a
10 condominium. It had to be sold. It was on the
11 market and it had been sold but it had to
12 be finalized. I flew in; I think it was in the
13 middle of September. And they put me up in a
14 hotel. And they also paid for the move, which
15 was very nice.
16 Q This is 2001, right?
17 A Pardon?
18 Q 2001?
19 A 2001, middle of September 2001. And --
20 but, you know, they said, "We'll give you two
21 weeks." So, in effect, I had to find a place to
22 live in two weeks. And at the end of that two
23 weeks I flew back to Minneapolis and -- where
24 Tim had been, you know, packing everything. And
25 we -- and we had the house closing that weekend.
24
1 And the movers came and threw everything on the
2 truck. And Tim and I put the two dogs into the
3 car, and we drove.
4 Q Okay. Then you took the job in
5 Secaucus?
6 A Yes, which I had already been at for two
7 weeks, yeah.
8 Q What was your title there?
9 A Managing editor.
10 Q How long --
11 A Maybe it was senior managing editor.
12 Q Okay. Who did you report to?
13 A Helen Powers.
14 Q What level was she at?
15 A Okay. Well, it was a division of Thomson
16 Health Care.
17 Q Okay.
18 A She reported to the VP of the division.
19 She was executive editor. And I was senior
20 managing editor.
21 Q Senior managing editor?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q And again, can you tell us what
24 your -- what your duties were there?
25 A Okay. This was an entirely different
25
1 type of medical communication or medical than I
2 had ever done before. Mine was entirely
3 magazines and newspapers. This was what you
4 call -- they call them "project houses." There
5 are very many of them in New Jersey.
6 And basically what they do is they
7 contract with a drug company. They don't issue
8 things on a regular basis. They will contract
9 to do either print pieces, now it's CDs and what
10 have you, in -- you know, in the digital area.
11 And they are usually onetime projects. Often
12 they could be print. When I initially started
13 it was print. And it could be anything -- all
14 the stuff you see in waiting rooms, you know, in
15 doctors' waiting rooms, that is written by these
16 project houses. We never did that. I never
17 worked for a company that did those. But that
18 gives you the idea the type of things.
19 And everything I did for these project
20 houses was still the -- the audience was the --
21 was the physician. They would -- we might do
22 what they call a "supplement," which is a series
23 of articles on a particular disease, which would
24 then be poly-bagged with a regular magazine.
25 You know you -- you probably see them when
26
1 you -- if you subscribe to magazines, every once
2 in a while it will come poly-bagged; and there
3 will be an extra magazine. You know, it was
4 those type of things. It's a onetime deal.
5 And they would try and spin that off,
6 try to make a CD out of it and, you know, re --
7 redo it as many times as you can to -- to make
8 them -- to make the maximum amount of money.
9 And I would be, of course, be involved in every
10 step of the way because it had to be changed
11 every time.
12 Q Okay.
13 A Yeah.
14 Q And were your job duties -- aside
15 from the product being different, were your job
16 duties as a senior manager essentially similar
17 to the ones you had at McGraw-Hill?
18 A Yes, except there was not as much
19 administration and supervision involved because
20 these were small staffs and -- but on the other
21 hand, there was an awful lot of responsibility
22 because you were answerable directly to the drug
23 company in the sense that through the
24 intermediary of the salesperson. So you often
25 ended up talking to someone at the drug company
27
1 about the project. And you know, they were the
2 client and they had -- they were powerful. They
3 had a lot -- a lot of money to spend. They
4 would think nothing of kissing you off and going
5 somewhere else. So they had to be treated very,
6 very carefully.
7 Q Was your work successful at
8 Thomson in Secaucus during this phase?
9 A Yes. One indicator of success was -- on
10 both places was the -- you would finish the job,
11 yeah, yeah. You'd hear the client was happy
12 with it, blah, blah, blah, you know. Then, all
13 of a sudden you would get a request for
14 reprints, you know, if it was a print piece. Or
15 CDs, they would ask for more CDs. And they had
16 to pay for this. I mean, that's where the
17 profit or -- you know, this was all gravy on
18 top. The thing was budgeted for X amount of
19 dollars. And if -- if they wanted a reprint
20 of -- of 36-page supplement, it was basically
21 the cost of paper and ink and the press time,
22 setting up the press and away you go.
23 And one of my -- this was a -- the last
24 job that I held, one of my favorites was --
25 yeah, they asked for 10,000 copies, the first
28
1 printing. It was a supplement. I think it was
2 24, 26, 30 pages. Then, a couple months later
3 there was another order for 10,000 more.
4 Q That was a sign of success?
5 A Well, I was very pleased. Now, mind you,
6 they at work, of course, your superiors, are
7 also very, very happy; but they have to
8 be careful in what they say because they don't
9 want -- you know, they don't want you to think
10 that you are -- they don't want you to become --
11 think you are indispensable or get a fat head,
12 so they, you know --
13 Q How long did you stay at Thomson
14 in Secaucus? So if you started in 2000 --
15 A Two years, almost two years.
16 Q That takes us to 2003, does it?
17 A Yes, November 20003.
18 Q Now, you were living in Secaucus
19 at that time, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q During that period, from the time
22 you came to Secaucus around September 2001 to
23 2003, when you left Thomson, was Tim working?
24 A Yes, he was.
25 Q Do you recall at what?
29
1 A He -- he was working as a substitute
2 teacher for -- I'm not exactly sure how the
3 school boards operated, but I know he went to
4 North Bergen a lot. Okay. And these would
5 be -- they would be jobs where the teacher was
6 expected to be out for a while. It was not
7 like, you know, teacher called in sick one day
8 because she had the sniffles. This was where
9 she was expected to be out for something for
10 some time.
11 Q In 2001, 2002, 2003 do you know
12 how much Tim averaged a year in earnings on that
13 job approximately?
14 A Oh, I did the taxes for both of us. I
15 did our tax forms. And I would say 15, 20.
16 Q Fifteen to 20,000 per year?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Now, then do you remember in 2003
19 did you -- did you say you left Thomson?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And where did you go?
22 A I went to Dowden Health Media.
23 Q Where was that located?
24 A Montvale.
25 Q Why did you make the change?
30
1 A It was the only fly in the ointment. Why
2 I made the change? Because Kathy at Dowden
3 called me up. She had been calling me for
4 months, wanting me to go up to join her.
5 Q She was recruiting you?
6 A Pardon -- she was courting me, yes.
7 And --
8 Q Do you happen to have a last name
9 for Kathy?
10 A Kathy. That's funny; on the way down
11 here this morning I was thinking about it. And
12 I cannot.
13 Q Do you happen to know what her
14 position was up at Dowden?
15 A She was also an executive editor or -- of
16 some sort. Dowden, now, compared to Thomson
17 Health, which is a worldwide huge, huge company,
18 Dowden Health was a mom and pop shop with
19 hundred employees, something like that, started
20 by Mr. Dowden himself, who still had a front --
21 you know, still sat in the front office, who
22 actually interviewed me before I was taken on
23 officially.
24 Q Did you then go on to Dowden? Did
25 you take a job at Dowden?
31
1 A Oh, yes, I took the job.
2 Q When was that?
3 A This was in November of 2003.
4 Q Okay.
5 A It was a long drive. That was my only
6 complaint. Yes, it was very attractive what
7 they offered me, yeah.
8 Q And you supplied all the
9 information about salary to Dr. Marcus, who
10 testified here --
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q So we won't go into that.
15 November 2003 you move up to Dowden, still
16 living in Secaucus, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Commuting to Montvale was it?
19 A It's on the border of New York and New
20 Jersey.
21 Q Okay. And just briefly, what was
22 your job at Dowden?
23 A Okay. Again, I was a senior managing
24 editor. And essentially, it was the same as the
25 work that I did at Thomson but in a completely
32
1 different environment.
2 Okay. This -- they were aggressive --
3 Thomson, it was an old -- they had been doing
4 this for 20, 30 years. The client that I worked
5 for at Thomson had been a client for 10 or 15
6 years, you know. And -- but Thomson, this
7 was -- in Montvale, this was a relatively new
8 division, new clients and with plans to expand
9 and to expand quickly. So the carrot that was
10 held up was you get in on the ground floor and,
11 you know, who knows what will happen --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- as time goes by. And indeed, they did
14 grow rapidly, they did, yeah.
15 Q So you were a senior managing
16 editor there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q With similar duties --
19 A Similar duties.
20 Q -- as you described? And --
21 A But it was clear, you know, I -- I -- I
22 don't want to brag, but I was given an office of
23 my own in Montvale, you know, with a door that
24 closed in the row of executive editors and VPs;
25 and whereas, the others sat in a pool in the
33
1 middle with cubicles.
2 Q Did you feel valued there?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. Generally speaking, did you
5 like your work?
6 A Yes, I would complaint; but yes, I liked
7 my work.
8 Q More generally, though, did you
9 like being a medical editor all these years?
10 Was that something meaningful to you?
11 A Yes, I did, because I was -- it -- I was
12 guaranteed a career -- I mean, a job for the
13 rest of my life pretty much, you know, unless I
14 did something horrific or something horrific
15 happened. And because you gradually -- I
16 happened to be good at it. And I -- you know,
17 for all, you know, the things that I could
18 complain about, as anyone can with any job, it
19 was -- the industry was small enough that people
20 knew me well enough and that I'd be okay, you
21 know.
22 And so in that sense it was -- it
23 was -- and I enjoyed the work. It was very
24 satisfying. There was something satisfying
25 about taking a job, you know, you meet the
34
1 cynical doctor, you know, who is sort of, you
2 know, okay, yeah, yeah, let's see -- you know.
3 And then you do it. And when he calls you up
4 after you've done it and you could tell by the
5 change in tone of voice that he is really
6 pleased with the result.
7 Well, you know, that's part of the --
8 and of course, underlying that, you know,
9 hopefully I was doing something good for
10 mankind, you know. I mean, that may be -- you
11 know, somewhere along the line maybe some doctor
12 will remember something he read in an article I
13 wrote, you know.
14 Q You know, Dr. Bursztajn testified
15 about certain moments of depression you had
16 before April 25th, 2004. And do you recall that
17 testimony?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 Q How much time did you lose from
20 your various jobs, do you think, because of
21 depression prior to April 25th, 2004, if any?
22 A I would say none other than the odd sick
23 day off, which was no more than anyone else.
24 Q So despite depression, you were
25 able to get to work, do your job?
35
1 A Yes.
2 Q How about -- let's talk about your
3 heart condition. That's come up. Did you have
4 some sort of heart surgery?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Can you tell the jury what
7 happened?
8 A Okay. This was in Minneapolis --
9 serendipitously, by chance, they discovered in
10 the year 2000 in September that in my heart --
11 there are two huge vessels that come curving up
12 out of the heart, you know. One of them is what
13 they call the "ascending aorta." Okay. Now,
14 right where it came out of the heart I had a
15 huge aneurysm. And an aneurysm, basically, is
16 the vessel expanding into a balloon.
17 Okay. So the vessel will be normal.
18 It will bulge out like a balloon. They are most
19 common in the -- you hear about them in the
20 abdomen, where people have aneurysms in the
21 abdomen. And what -- and when -- as soon as
22 that vessel starts bulging, they have it all
23 charted out about the risk. They have them
24 graded. And at a certain point the risk for
25 them bursting becomes very, very high.
36
1 And they don't actually like burst like
2 a balloon because the wall is three layers. But
3 what happens is the first inside layer will
4 crack open. The blood works its way under
5 the -- under layer number one. Layer two works
6 its way. And you know, and -- and then finally
7 layer three goes. And you have about -- they
8 actually put a time on it, but you have about 15
9 seconds to get to the hospital and have it --
10 you know, I think it's 15 to 30 minutes.
11 Q Did you get to the hospital with
12 this aneurysm?
13 A When they did the final test, because
14 it's hard to visualize this particular one, they
15 wouldn't let me out of the hospital.
16 Q What year was this and, if you
17 remember, the month?
18 A Yeah, November 2000.
19 Q What hospital were you in?
20 A Fairview Hospital in Minneapolis.
21 Q Did you have an operation?
22 A Yes, I went on semi-emergent -- you know,
23 it wasn't an emergency surgery. And what
24 happened was they replaced -- they took that
25 part of the aorta, but then they discovered --
37
1 and they knew this probably was going to happen.
2 As the vessel goes down, it -- it meets with the
3 aortic valve, which would be the valve there
4 that pumps the blood. And the valve was damaged
5 beyond repair, so they had to replace that, as
6 well.
7 And I had to pick -- the surgeon before
8 surgery discussed all the types of replacements.
9 And he left the decision to me, which I
10 thought -- well, you know, anyways, I -- I
11 picked a cadaver graft, which is basically human
12 tissue. I picked a graft. It was one unit,
13 from what I understand -- it may have changed --
14 one unit that included the valve and whatever
15 the segment. It was at least, you know, about
16 that much, which you get from a tissue bank
17 somewhere. And they put that in.
18 Q Is that open heart surgery?
19 A Yes, it was. But it was not like
20 coronary artery bypass. It was -- I was on the
21 heart-lung machine. Basically, they stop your
22 heart and they stop your lungs. I think it was
23 eight to nine hours. It was a long time. The
24 surgery is very debilitating.
25 Q Do you recall how much time you
38
1 lost from work as a result of that surgery and
2 the recuperation approximately?
3 A I think a month-and-a-half. It wasn't as
4 much as you would think, you know.
5 Q Then you went back to work
6 full-time?
7 A Then I went back to work.
8 Q Where were you working when you
9 went back to work?
10 A For Hospital Practice, McGraw-Hill in --
11 in Minneapolis.
12 Q Did you have any subsequent
13 medical procedures with respect to your heart?
14 A Yes, in early in 2003 Tim and I were
15 visiting a -- it was a Friday night, I think.
16 Tim and I were having dinner at a friend's
17 house, and suddenly I started complaining. I
18 was starting to feel kind of funny, you know,
19 palpitations, I don't know. You know, you get
20 like, you know, that -- and so I said, "Oh,
21 don't worry, it will go away."
22 Anyways, the two of them insisted. We
23 went to Meadowview Hospital right near Harmon
24 Cove in Secaucus. And I was having -- I was in
25 the middle of an arrhythmia, and they admitted
39
1 me immediately. It was about 10:00, 11:00 on a
2 Friday night. They arrested the arrhythmia with
3 drugs. Basically, they give you a bolus, which
4 is a onetime big shot of a particular drug. I
5 can't remember the name. And it sort of jolts
6 you back. As opposed to take out the paddles
7 and giving you an electrical shock, they did it
8 with a drug. And I was in the -- the -- what's
9 the -- not the urgent care, the --
10 Q ICU?
11 A -- the ICU for a week. And then I was on
12 medication. And I was sent to Columbia
13 Presbyterian, where they were doing what they
14 call "cardiac mapping." And to make a long
15 story short, about a month later I underwent a
16 procedure there, where they tunneled -- they
17 didn't cut me. They tunneled a thing -- they
18 went into my heart with -- electrically they
19 were able to pinpoint where the problem was.
20 The arrhythmia that I had was very
21 dangerous. It was not what they call -- some
22 arrhythmia are fine. This was a dangerous one.
23 And they found where the source was. And
24 fortunately, it was in the scar tissue left by
25 the -- by the prior surgery. So it was not --
40
1 it was not a new disease or anything that -- so
2 what they -- they electro -- you know, they
3 burned it. Whatever they had to do the mapping,
4 they could -- at the same time they went in
5 there they found the spot where the electrical
6 stuff was coming. It's all electricity. And
7 they just zapped it. And -- which cured the
8 problem. I have not had an arrhythmia since
9 then.
10 Q Do you remain on a treatment --
11 first of all, approximately what month and year
12 was that? I know you said --
13 A This was about -- this happened in
14 February and March of 2003.
15 Q Okay. And how much time did you
16 lose from work because of that condition and the
17 recuperation?
18 A Well, there was a week in the ICU. And
19 at Columbia it was overnight. So that may have
20 been two days, maybe two-and-a-half. I don't
21 know, but not much.
22 Q So about a week plus two days; is
23 that --
24 A Yeah.
25 Q -- what you think?
41
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Then did you return to full-time
3 employment?
4 A Yes. I probably had a deadline.
5 Q Did you continue under doctor's
6 care after this?
7 A Oh, yes. I am under -- there is -- I am
8 on various medications. There is one
9 medication, which is called -- it's a
10 beta-blocker. It's called Metoprolol or Toprol.
11 And I have been told I have to stay on that the
12 rest of my life. And basically what that does
13 is it sort of slows down your heart a little bit
14 so to reduce the pressure on the graft, you
15 know, as -- as the blood is pumped out of your
16 heart, you know, to reduce the force, the sheer
17 force or --
18 Q Did you have any doctors in
19 Secaucus?
20 A Yes, all of my medical care was in
21 Secaucus.
22 Q Who did you have?
23 A I moved it all --
24 Q Which doctors did you have?
25 A My cardiologist was Dr. Pumill. And I
42
1 had to see him at least two times, if not more,
2 a year, because they would always do some type
3 of imaging of the heart just to see that it's
4 not growing.
5 Q Do you happen to recall where he
6 was located in Secaucus?
7 A He, again, is on that road where -- near
8 Harmon Meadow, but it's closer to Highway 3.
9 Q Okay. Did you have any other
10 doctors in Secaucus during this time?
11 A Yes, my family physician, Dr. Rafaelli.
12 I don't remember his first name. And also my
13 dentist. And both of them were located in
14 downtown.
15 Q Who was your dentist?
16 A Gabbin, G-a-b-b-i-n.
17 Q Did you use a pharmacy in Secaucus
18 during this period, 2003, 2002?
19 A Yes, the one that is located smack in the
20 middle of Town. It's privately owned and --
21 Q Is that the Marra pharmacy?
22 A Yes, the Marra pharmacy.
23 Q Now, we had you -- you had gone up
24 to Montvale to Dowden. Did there come a point
25 in time when you made a change or attempted to
43
1 make a change to another employer, Thomson?
2 A Yes, yes, there was, okay.
3 Q Can you tell us about that?
4 A What had happened at Dowden was that I --
5 my -- my responsibilities were expanding, and
6 for the first time in my life I was going on
7 sales calls with the salesmen.
8 Now, you have to understand, like,
9 editorial people are -- you know, they drool,
10 they -- you know, they spill crumbs on their
11 tie, they have dandruff on their shoulders. You
12 do not take editors out. You know, they're
13 preferably caged.
14 And, well, these salespeople wanted
15 help. And what I did first was I started
16 helping them writing -- or I was told to --
17 writing their proposals. They have to -- you
18 know, they have to present a coherent proposal
19 to the drug company. And then I was actually
20 writing a few proposals from scratch.
21 And at that point they dragged me with
22 them. And I had to explain the proposal to
23 whoever we saw at the drug company. And they
24 landed the -- the -- you know, they landed the
25 account. And so this was a good sign because it
44
1 meant -- it meant percentages, as opposed to a
2 basic salary. I'd always been on a flat salary.
3 If I got into this, there might be a percentage,
4 you know, in addition. They give you a flat
5 salary and then --
6 Q You mean commission of some sort?
7 A Yeah, commission, exactly.
8 Q So my -- what I was trying to
9 focus on was did there come a time when you
10 changed or attempted to change from work up at
11 Dowden to someplace else?
12 A Yes, because of the commute and the fact
13 that a lot of the promises where being delayed
14 and delayed and delayed, it was not -- I was not
15 promised a promotion. I was not -- I was -- you
16 know, it was all very vague. It was in the
17 future, but the future did not seem to arrive.
18 So I thought, oh, come on, you know. And I
19 called up Thomson. And yes, they wanted -- they
20 wanted me back.
21 Q Is this Thomson in Secaucus --
22 A Yes.
23 Q -- where you worked?
24 A Yes, Thomson where I worked. Not in
25 exactly the same position. I was not going back
45
1 to my old job because they had done some type
2 of -- but I was going back there. As a matter
3 of fact, I was going to hand in my resignation
4 on April 26th, 2004. I had bagged the job at
5 Thomson.
6 Q You had a firm job offer at
7 Thomson; is that --
8 A Yes, which I had not officially given the
9 final okay to. But the time was pressing; I had
10 to give that final okay.
11 Q So you were coming back to work in
12 Secaucus?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You know, before I get on to the
15 next topic I want to make sure we get this in
16 the record. At some point did you become a
17 citizen of the United States?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you remember when that was?
20 A In 1997 or '8.
21 Q Okay. Now, we will get back to
22 your job a little later. So you moved into
23 Secaucus. Did you notice anything --
24 A Yes.
25 Q -- about the firehouse, the
46
1 firemen when you moved in?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Can you tell the jury what you
6 observed in the early period?
7 A I immediately noticed an air of
8 unfriendliness, if not down right hostility from
9 the men in the firehouse next door. And, you
10 know, you might ask, "How do you know this?"
11 Well, you know, there is your basic
12 indifference, you know, how when you walk by
13 strangers or you walk by a group of people, they
14 may see you and really not react. And then
15 there is sort of like, you know, we don't really
16 like it that you are around here, you know, some
17 sort of vague feeling that you're not welcome.
18 But I got the ultimate immediately,
19 which was just real stares. And if you grow up
20 as a gay man, you know exactly what's going on.
21 These men knew that I was gay.
22 MR. PARIS: Objection, Your Honor.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
24 BY MR. MULLIN:
25 A They had to have known.
47
1 MR. PARIS: Objection, Your Honor.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Objection is
3 sustained.
4 BY MR. MULLIN:
5 Q The objection is sustained.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Will you please ask
8 a question.
9 MR. MULLIN: I will ask another
10 question.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
12 BY MR. MULLIN:
13 Q Did the firemen ever see you and
14 Tim walking together when you observed this
15 hostility? Were you together with Tim walking?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. You said --
18 A We didn't expect it, so --
19 Q And did the -- do you have any
20 other basis for saying the firemen knew you were
21 gay?
22 A Yes, I had told the real estate agent
23 that I was gay. I had made a big deal out of it
24 with Patrick Hjelm. I said, "Do you have any
25 problem renting to two gay men?" Because I
48
1 wanted it open and cleared up out in the air
2 before, you know, you get in there and you --
3 you discover you have a homophobic landlord.
4 That was all we needed.
5 And then we had lived there for some
6 time. And there is two men living in a house --
7 a little house right next door. They -- you
8 know, they may go -- they may walk out together.
9 You know, one of them goes off in a car; another
10 one goes shopping for groceries. Our windows
11 are open. Who knows what they heard? You know,
12 they may have heard us talking.
13 I find it impossible to believe that
14 they could not -- have not concluded or heard
15 that we were gay. I mean, there were no -- we
16 didn't -- we didn't have any people over
17 initially. There were no women around. It was
18 just the two of us with two dogs walking. You
19 know, the two of us go to walk the dogs
20 together. You know, this is, you know, the year
21 2001 and --
22 Q Thank you.
23 A Okay.
24 Q Now I am going to focus you on a
25 couple incidents, focus your attention narrowly
49
1 because of certain rulings of the Court.
2 Tim has testified about an incident
3 around Christmastime 2001 involving a car
4 pulling in rapidly towards him as he was
5 standing in the parking lot. Do you recall his
6 testimony?
7 A Yes, yes, I was --
8 Q Do you have any recollection of
9 that incident that you can share with the jury
10 from what you saw personally or heard?
11 A Yeah, I was -- we were doing Christmas
12 decorating. And I was on a stepladder
13 decorating the tree. I heard a screech of
14 tires. And the house is such that any movement
15 of cars that just don't go straight down
16 Paterson Plank Road, if there is any movement,
17 the headlights always sweep in through the
18 window. So you get the sweep of the headlights,
19 you know, along the back wall.
20 So there was -- you know, there was a
21 squealing or whatever of tires and -- and the
22 headlights. And I heard voices. Anyways, I got
23 down from the ladder; and I looked through the
24 window, the living room window. And there was a
25 car pulled up very close to the house, and Tim
50
1 was talking to either one or more of the people
2 there.
3 Q Okay. This is something you saw
4 through a closed window?
5 A Yes, yes.
6 Q And then --
7 A I mean, I did open the blinds. I wasn't
8 looking through the blinds, yeah.
9 Q Tim also discussed these -- these
10 incidents of fire -- of people ringing and
11 running, as ringing your doorbell and running,
12 how he has testified about that. And I don't
13 need to repeat the whole thing, but do you have
14 any personal observations or recollections about
15 that incident?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Can you tell us?
18 A Most -- a lot of them happened on the
19 weekends, so I would hear the doorbell ring.
20 And I'd be somewhere in the house, and I'd
21 say -- you know, I'm nosey, so I'd say, "Who is
22 it," you know. Nobody. You know.
23 So we began to discuss, after this went
24 on for sometime, who this could be. And I said,
25 "It's just some kids" because I used to do it
51
1 when I was about in third grade. How old are
2 you then? Eight years I think is the last time
3 I did it. That's what I imagined it to be,
4 until I went out and looked, stood on the front
5 porch. And there really was no protection for a
6 kid to hide, okay. If you heard the doorbell
7 and you ran to the front and opened the door,
8 you know, the kid would not -- a child would not
9 have time to run for -- there was cover, but it
10 was too far away. Wouldn't have time to reach
11 cover. So that's what we noticed. So that left
12 us sort of befuddled and puzzled as to what it
13 was.
14 Q Okay. Were you present when Tim
15 observed -- made any observations about who was
16 doing this?
17 A Yes, that was a Saturday. I was in the
18 house.
19 Q You were in the house at that
20 time?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. And did you hear anything
23 Tim said as he made that observation?
24 A Well, he came to talk to me. He told me
25 what he had observed. Yeah, I heard the
52
1 doorbell, both doorbells ring.
2 Q He has testified about that?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q And then Tim -- Tim has testified
5 to this jury about the incident of finding
6 condoms on the back porch. Do you recall his
7 testimony in that regard?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And just your -- any personal -- I
10 don't want to repeat Tim's testimony. Just your
11 personal observations; did you have any
12 experience with that? Did you observe anything
13 personally?
14 A Yes, Tim showed me a number of them.
15 Q Number of what?
16 A Of the condoms.
17 Q And where were they when he showed
18 them to you?
19 A On the back porch, yeah.
20 Q Now, I want to come up to the
21 incident of the early morning hours of
22 April 25th, 2004.
23 We are just going to give you some
24 water.
25 MS. SMITH: Judge, can I just give
53
1 him some water?
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, please.
3 MS. SMITH: Is that okay, Judge?
4 BY MR. MULLIN:
5 Q Okay.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Are you ready? I am going to draw
8 your attention to the early morning hours of
9 April 25th, 2004. First of all, where were you?
10 A I was asleep.
11 Q And can you tell us if anything
12 awakened you?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you tell us about that?
15 A I -- the bedroom is on the third floor on
16 the far side. It is not -- it does not abut the
17 parking lot. It's on the opposite side of the
18 house. And Tim came into the bedroom. I don't
19 know if I was already becoming awake. I have
20 always just said Tim woke me up.
21 And he said, "Peter, you have to come
22 downstairs and listen to this." And I knew by
23 his tone of voice that it was something serious,
24 it was not frivolous. I mean, you know, I -- I
25 knew.
54
1 So I got up, and I walked down the
2 three or four steps into the living room --
3 dining area and heard this incredible noise
4 going on. And I didn't -- it didn't -- it
5 didn't click with me immediately as to what this
6 was. Because we were so used to loud ruckus
7 noise in the parking lot that my initial
8 reaction was this was just more of the same,
9 this was just another episode at 988 Schopmann
10 Drive.
11 But then, when I began to hear the
12 language -- and we're talking a matter of
13 seconds. This did not take hours to figure
14 out -- I said to Tim, "This is for us."
15 Q What language did you hear in
16 these initial -- in this initial phase?
17 A "Faggot" and the "F" word.
18 Q Use --
19 A "Fucking faggot." "Fucking faggots."
20 And then I -- you know, I heard what they were
21 saying. You want me to say it?
22 Q Yeah, every word that you recall.
23 A Okay. Excuse me. I mean, it's -- it's
24 like, "Fucking faggots." And at some point
25 there was this man running up and down the side
55
1 of the house, hitting the house as he went --
2 this is right beside the parking lot -- yelling,
3 "Homo. Homo. Homo. Homo. Homo. We don't
4 want you here. We don't want your village
5 faggots in this Town. Come on out." They
6 actually -- they asked us to come out. I guess
7 to fight them. "Come on out here, chicken
8 shits. Eat our cum," which helped us put two --
9 put together. "You want some more of our
10 cum-filled rubbers" or something. I'm not being
11 exact on that; but the message was very, very
12 plain, very, very clear.
13 And the one that I will never, ever,
14 ever forget as long as I live, "We will kill
15 you, you fucking faggots. We will kill you and
16 your fucking dogs." And this just went on and
17 on and on. "We will kill you, you fucking
18 faggots. We will kill you and your fucking
19 dogs." And I mean, it was like this was for us.
20 By a group of total strangers. I had never
21 spoken to any of these men. They had never said
22 a word to me. And they wanted us dead.
23 Q Peter, you -- at this point where
24 were you standing?
25 A At the bottom of the steps give or take,
56
1 you know.
2 Q Did you -- what did you do next?
3 A You know, with the banging of the house
4 and the other noise, I said to Tim -- you know,
5 those -- those windows, I said to Tim, "Get
6 down." I don't know why, you know. "Get down.
7 Get down." I was thinking of the windows. We
8 got down.
9 I had to phone the police. Where is
10 the phone? Oh, Tim had left it down by the
11 computer. It was a cordless. So I went down to
12 get it and ended up making the first phone call,
13 911. And I -- I dropped the phone, you know.
14 And so Tim picked it up, and he made the
15 final -- he called 911.
16 And some more time elapsed. Meanwhile,
17 we have the dogs cowering around our legs. They
18 are afraid. They are frightened. The
19 dispatcher -- apparently, Tim said something to
20 the effect, yes, the police were coming or
21 whatever.
22 And suddenly it occurred to me -- I
23 said, "We have to try and see who they are,"
24 meaning -- I mean, we were not about -- I was
25 not about to open the windows or open the
57
1 blinds. I mean, because they were so close to
2 the windows that --
3 Q You are saying the men were so
4 close to the windows?
5 A Yes, they were so close to the windows
6 that, you know, it would -- who knows what would
7 happen if you went -- you know, the blinds were
8 closed; and we left them closed. What I meant
9 by that was I had hoped to go to the front door,
10 where that little bit of porch is, and peak
11 around and maybe see somebody.
12 And as we were going to the front door,
13 you know, the police were coming up -- at least
14 I assumed because we opened the door and
15 there -- someone was coming up the walk to the
16 porch.
17 Q I suppose at this point maybe we
18 should play the 911 tape and have you identify
19 for the record.
20 Peter, do you want to step down here?
21 A Oh, okay.
22 (Whereupon, an audiotape is
23 played.)
24 Q I think that was clear, but can
25 you -- can you tell the jury what you heard --
58
1 first of all, was that your voice?
2 A Yes, that was my voice.
3 Q Was that you calling in to 911 at
4 the moment of the incident you just described?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did you get what you were saying?
7 A Yes, I said there were three firemen --
8 Q Okay.
9 A -- which would only -- what I have
10 described to you went on at that time, and it
11 went on afterwards. I must have identified
12 three voices.
13 Q At that moment?
14 A At that -- at that moment is what I heard
15 because it was soon after I came downstairs.
16 Q You said they were yelling
17 "abuse," right?
18 A Yes, "abuse" was the word I used. I
19 didn't know, I mean, what you say to a
20 dispatcher.
21 Q Have a seat. I just wanted you to
22 identify -- clarify the word.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Just so the record
24 is clear, what was just played is P-390; is that
25 correct?
59
1 MS. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor.
2 MR. MULLIN: Yes Your Honor.
3 MS. SMITH: Thank you.
4 BY MR. MULLIN:
5 A I mean, I had not looked outside, so --
6 Q Were you hearing three voices at
7 that moment?
8 A I heard three voices, yeah.
9 Q Now, then, at some point did the
10 police arrive?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And did you go outside?
13 Did you open the door?
14 A We opened the door. The --
15 Q What did you see when you opened
16 the door?
17 A A policeman coming up the little path.
18 Maybe he had his foot on the steps already, but
19 you know, was coming up to the door.
20 Q Okay. Now, Tim has described what
21 happened on the porch. I'm not going to go into
22 great detail. But did you observe the -- how
23 many officers were there ultimately on the
24 porch?
25 A Two.
60
1 Q Did you observe -- strike that.
2 Did you make any attempts while you
3 were on the porch to identify any of the
4 firemen, any of the people in the parking lot?
5 Did you try to see them?
6 A Yes, to a certain degree, as much as you
7 could, you know. I know Tim did the same thing.
8 And -- because the porch, the front door, the
9 wooden door opens in; but the screen door opens
10 out, you know, right onto the porch. So in
11 order to avoid the screen door, Ulrich had put
12 his back against the railing; and he was
13 basically between us and the parking lot.
14 Okay. Now, I saw the -- remember the
15 scene. I can still see those orange sodium
16 lights, you know, those orange lights. So the
17 whole area is bathed in this orange light. And
18 with a number of people milling around. I don't
19 know how many, you know.
20 And at some point during the course --
21 I'm not saying this happened immediately -- some
22 of the guests began to leave. I remember seeing
23 a woman and a man who were reasonably well
24 dressed. I think he was wearing a camel coat,
25 one of those beige camel coats; and she was
61
1 dressed in something dark, could be black, you
2 know. And -- and then in the parking lot proper
3 there was some activity going on.
4 Q Okay.
5 A And to peer, no, I couldn't see beyond
6 Ulrich. And then there was jockeying for
7 position between Tim and I, as well. Not that
8 we were elbowing; but you know, it was very,
9 very crowded. So you had to -- you know,
10 everyone was moving around. And -- but every
11 time you looked, you know, there seemed to
12 be some shifting going on.
13 Q Who was shifting?
14 A Well, finally I realized that one doing a
15 lot of shifting was Officer Ulrich.
16 Q How was he shifting? What was he
17 doing?
18 A Well, depending on which way you were
19 going to look. I mean, I had to -- if this is
20 the -- this is a little wall, the door is here.
21 This porch is not that much bigger. And he is
22 standing here, and we're trying to look like
23 this. And every -- all he had to do was go like
24 this or like this. He didn't have to jump
25 three feet, you know, because he is basically
62
1 here by -- with his butt against the railing.
2 Q So you're describing certain
3 things that are not going to get in the record
4 because they're body movements. So let's try to
5 describe them, okay. When you -- you indicated
6 a moment ago that at one point you -- you
7 shifted to your left, correct? You tilted to
8 your left in order to --
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that was in order to get a
11 better view of the men in the parking lot?
12 A Well, left would not give me a better
13 view. I would have to go right.
14 Q You shifted right?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q And when you shifted right, are
17 you saying that Officer Ulrich shifted in some
18 way?
19 A Yes.
20 Q How did he shift when you shifted
21 to your right?
22 A He would shift to his left.
23 Q And what was the effect of that?
24 A You didn't see anything. I didn't do a
25 whole lot of this. Most of this -- somehow Tim
63
1 got in front of me, and he was doing it. But I
2 noticed him doing it with Tim.
3 Q You noticed Tim shifting in an
4 attempt to see the men in the parking lot?
5 A I assume, yeah.
6 Q Well, did you --
7 A I assume that he was.
8 Q Not what you assumed. Did you
9 observe it? Did you observe Tim --
10 A Yeah, I observed Tim's head wanting to
11 take a look.
12 Q Did you observe Officer Ulrich
13 blocking his view?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, at some point --
16 A No, there is no doubt about that.
17 Q Okay. At some point did you
18 become emotional on the porch? Tim described
19 that in his testimony.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. I don't want to discuss
22 what was said on the porch, but what happened in
23 terms of becoming emotional?
24 A I saw the writing on the wall. After
25 reception, which you've heard, with Officer
64
1 Ulrich, you know -- and then Sergeant Amodeo
2 showed up. And Sergeant Amodeo actually was not
3 a bad person. I think he was doing the best
4 that he could. And he was clearly trying to
5 give us a warning. And he made it very plain
6 later on he was basically telling us --
7 MR. PARIS: Objection, Your Honor.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
9 Can you ask --
10 MR. MULLIN: I will ask a narrower
11 question.
12 BY MR. MULLIN:
13 Q I'm really asking did you have an
14 emotional reaction on the porch while the police
15 were there?
16 A Yes, I started crying.
17 Q Okay. And -- and after you
18 started crying where did you go? What did you
19 do next?
20 A Sergeant Amodeo asked me to go indoors.
21 Q And did you go indoors?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Where did you go?
24 A You know, I don't -- I ended up upstairs.
25 But Tim and Amodeo came in. They decided to
65
1 settle down on the sofa. So we have the two
2 dogs, and the two dogs had to be removed. So I
3 took the two dogs up to the bedroom and closed
4 the door to keep the dogs from going downstairs.
5 So basically I don't know exactly when it
6 happened, but very soon after I was sent indoors
7 I was in the bedroom with the two dogs.
8 Q Okay. And what -- what happened
9 in the bedroom?
10 A I assume I laid on the bed and stared at
11 the ceiling. And heard voices downstairs. I
12 could not understand what they were saying. And
13 eventually Tim came up and told me about the
14 conversation. And then I don't think Tim slept
15 at all that night, but at some point I did get a
16 few hours of sleep.
17 Q Did you go to work the next day,
18 Monday?
19 A Monday I went to work.
20 Q Now, at some point were you called
21 down to the police station to give a statement?
22 A Yes, yes.
23 Q Let me show you what's been
24 marked. I use a defendant's number, D-27 and
25 D-28. I will ask you to take a moment and look
66
1 at that document.
2 First of all, do you recognize the
3 document, this two-page document, D-27 and D-28?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q What do you recognize it to be?
6 A It's my statement to the Secaucus Police.
7 Q And is your signature on it?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And what's the date on it and --
10 A April 27, 2004.
11 Q That would have been that Tuesday
12 after the incident in the wee hours of Sunday
13 morning, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And do you remember who the
16 detectives were that took this statement?
17 A Yes, Reinke and DeGennaro.
18 Q Approximately how long did they
19 interview you before they typed up this
20 statement?
21 A Probably an hour because the time I
22 signed it was 10:45. And I'm not sure what time
23 the appointment was; but it was certainly nine
24 or later, you know, that I went in. So it was
25 about nine. So that's an hour and 45 minutes.
67
1 Q Do you remember which of the
2 officers typed it up?
3 A Yes, Reinke.
4 Q Okay. Now, you can follow along.
5 A Okay.
6 Q It says here that -- there is a
7 question typed here. "Peter, did either you or
8 Tim have any face-to-face confrontation with
9 anyone regarding this incident that night?" You
10 see that?
11 A What page are you on two?
12 Q I'm sorry, I'm on the second page.
13 A Yes, I see that.
14 Q "Peter, did either you or Tim have
15 any face-to-face confrontation with anyone
16 regarding this incident that night?"
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recall being asked that
19 question?
20 A I don't recall now, but I -- I am not
21 doubting that it was asked, okay --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- because I signed.
24 Q And then you see on the front page
25 on D-27, "Peter, did you see any of the
68
1 individuals who called you" -- "Did you see any
2 of the individuals who called you those names or
3 had struck your house?" You see that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Do you recall that being asked?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And then right after it says --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- "Can you recognize" --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- "anyone involved?"
12 A Yes.
13 Q Hang on. Wait for my next
14 question. Twice they asked you if you saw
15 anybody face-to-face. Did they ever ask you at
16 this interview whether you recognized, whether
17 you or Tim recognized the voices of the three
18 people you heard yelling? Was that specific
19 question asked of you in that form?
20 A No.
21 Q There is another matter in here.
22 Do you recall -- you see a question in this
23 about the issue of the dirty condoms being
24 thrown on your porch? This is on the second
25 page, D-28. You see the question?
69
1 A Yes.
2 Q "How do you know the individuals
3 involved in this incident are firemen?"
4 And you answered, "Because they made a
5 reference to cum-filled rubbers," et cetera,
6 right?
7 A Actually, I corrected myself; and I said,
8 actually, "cum-filled condoms."
9 Q Did you alert the police as to
10 what you knew about this -- this -- this condom
11 incident in this written statement? Did you put
12 them on notice of what you knew?
13 A Oh, yes.
14 Q You say in an answer to one of
15 their questions, reading D-28, "That means they
16 were either firemens or pals of them."
17 It says, "At one point a committee of
18 firemen had visited our landlord." Did you tell
19 the police that that night?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Said, "A committee of firemen
22 visited the landlord, Patrick Hjelm, because
23 they were concerned that we would go to the
24 press about the condom incident." You told the
25 police about that?
70
1 A I told these two gentlemen, Reinke and
2 DeGennaro, yes.
3 Q At some point did you become aware
4 that they had shut down -- that the Town had
5 shut down the Secaucus -- the social wing of the
6 North End Fire Station?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you recall how you learned
9 that?
10 A First of all, because there were very
11 few, if any, cars in the parking lot --
12 Q In the firehouse parking lot?
13 A Yeah. And also, I can't remember whether
14 I had been told by Amodeo or -- but we were told
15 that it would be done. And there was much, much
16 less activity and -- at certain points for a few
17 hours it was actually deserted, you know.
18 Q At some point did you become aware
19 that the firehouse had reopened for social
20 purposes?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Do you recall how you became aware
23 of that?
24 A On -- well, it opened with a splash on
25 Saturday -- I think it was May 1 -- in the sense
71
1 that from almost no people suddenly there were
2 an awful lot of people in the parking lot.
3 Q Had the Mayor or Town
4 Administrator or Fire Chief alerted you that the
5 firehouse was going to be reopened on that day?
6 A Not to me.
7 Q Okay. Now, after the firehouse
8 reopened how long did it remain open while you
9 were in Secaucus?
10 A That's a hard question to answer because
11 it was pretty much open since -- after that it
12 was pretty much open, although there were a few
13 days in the first month where there was sort of
14 less activity. It didn't seem to be as -- you
15 know, it was hard to tell. There were -- there
16 were few -- you know, there was a little less
17 activity than what you would describe as normal.
18 Q In the six months that you
19 remained there how many days were there less
20 activity?
21 A Oh, no more than two, three, four.
22 Q Okay. Other than that did it
23 remain open with normal activity?
24 A Yes, it was just like before.
25 Q Okay. Immediately following the
72
1 opening up of the firehouse did you observe any
2 behavior by the firemen that you found alarming
3 or concerning?
4 A I'm sorry?
5 Q Immediately after -- after not
6 even immediately after. After the opening up of
7 the firehouse on May 1 did you observe any
8 behavior by the firemen that you found alarming
9 or disturbing?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Can you tell us about that?
12 A Well, immediately they began gathering.
13 They made no bones about gathering in the
14 parking lot and walking close to our house. But
15 then what really scared me was at night they
16 would pull up the cars. If this is -- if --
17 they would pull up the cars at a 90-degree angle
18 to the house, meaning that the headlights were
19 facing the side of the house, where our living
20 room win -- and dining room windows went. They
21 would put -- turn on their lights on high beam
22 for several hours while we were in the house.
23 And that is extremely frightening and
24 disserting -- discombobulating, dis -- I mean
25 disturbing, whatever. I mean, it's like we're
73
1 being threatened. It was like a -- an F you
2 type of statement. Here we are again. We're
3 back. They were taunting us.
4 Q Did you ever hear them touching or
5 hitting the house during that period of six
6 months?
7 A Yes, once or twice.
8 Q What did you hear?
9 A A bang, you know, on the side of the
10 house. Whether it was related to these
11 headlight incidents I'm not quite sure. But I
12 distinctly do remember at one point they did not
13 leave -- they touched the house again, yeah,
14 they did. They did.
15 Q Now, Peter, Tim has described
16 putting newsprint up on the windows out of fear.
17 Did you observe anything along -- did you
18 observe him doing anything of that nature?
19 A Yes, I did. And we had blinds. And I
20 thought, well -- I left them up for a couple of
21 days or whatever; but basically, I just took
22 them down because they served no purpose in
23 the -- since we had blinds. We could close the
24 blinds, you know. But I did not have the
25 heart -- Tim was frightened, and this was a
74
1 panic reaction. I knew it. So I didn't -- I
2 didn't -- I mean, I didn't admonish him or say,
3 you know, "You're crazy," whatever. I just -- I
4 knew what he was -- you know, I knew; and it
5 was -- I just took them down.
6 Q Did your behavior change your and
7 Tim's daily activities while -- once the firemen
8 made their presence and kept their -- kept
9 appearing there during six months?
10 A Yes, it did it. Changed dramatically as
11 time went on and it became more and more obvious
12 that nothing was going to be done, you know,
13 nothing. And the presence of the firemen
14 continued, their in-your-face attitude in the
15 parking lot.
16 We, in effect, became prisoners in our
17 own home. We -- we stopped walking the dogs.
18 That took some time. I mean, you know, first
19 you curtail where you walk them. I certainly
20 never walked by the firehouse again with those
21 dogs. So you go in the other direction. You
22 know, when it's my turn to walk the dogs, it's
23 nighttime because I was -- I was at work for 10
24 to 12 hours a day. And you know, I had to pitch
25 in; and so I walked down Paterson Plank in the
75
1 other direction.
2 Well, those walks became shorter and
3 shorter because, you know, you're looking
4 around, you're looking around. You're
5 constantly -- because all those cars that they
6 couldn't identify, all those -- all those
7 taunters, they disappeared in this direction,
8 which ends in the river. The North End of
9 Secaucus is basically a cul-de-sac. There is
10 one main road in. It's not an area where
11 strangers come. You don't just happen to drop
12 into North End Secaucus. It's very difficult.
13 You have to intentionally drive in.
14 It got to the point where we -- oh, we
15 stopped using the backyard, which was a great
16 source of enjoyment, particularly in the summer.
17 And eventually we would just let the dogs out
18 for a pee or do their business. And -- and they
19 would come back in the house.
20 And the way we -- the way we used the
21 house gradually changed. And it was a shift
22 away from the side where the house faced the
23 parking lot, which, in effect, meant at least I
24 spent very little time in the living room,
25 dining room, kitchen. I would go home from work
76
1 and basically go up to the bedroom, which was on
2 the opposite side of the house.
3 I mean, everything would become a major
4 production. We had to eat. Where do you get
5 food? Where do you get food in Downtown
6 Secaucus? I -- you have to get your drugs from
7 the drug store. We dealt with Marra Drugs,
8 right downtown. You got to go down there.
9 And every single day it seemed like
10 there they were, outside, business as usual.
11 Loud, loud parties. Drinking. Drink, drink,
12 drink, drink. They loved their drink. Loud
13 music. No regard for where they stood. It was
14 almost as if they intentionally would stand
15 close to the house.
16 We couldn't open the windows on that
17 side anymore, at least not at nighttime, you
18 know, so you could catch no cross-breeze.
19 I stopped going to the doctor. I never
20 went to my family physician again.
21 I had a dental appointment, and I
22 didn't show. I never went there again.
23 Now, Dr. Pumill, my cardiologist, of
24 course, was the most important. Excuse me. I
25 continued to see him for some time. And then
77
1 one time I walked into his waiting room, which
2 was unusually crowded. I think they were having
3 some type of an educational seminar with a group
4 of people that reminded me -- they looked just
5 like a group of firemen and their girlfriends.
6 So I was extremely uncomfortable. And all my
7 panic buttons were pushed; and it was just like
8 get out of here, get out of here, get out of
9 here.
10 And I, you know, went quietly to the
11 bathroom. And from there it was close to the
12 exit, and I left. And I never -- I never -- I
13 missed my appointment. I wrote Dr. Pumill a
14 very nice note because I didn't want him -- the
15 other two I never did -- Dr. Pumill a very nice
16 note thanking him because he was a good
17 cardiologist. And I found another one. Not in
18 Secaucus.
19 There is more. I mean, it's like -- I
20 mean, to get a feel of what it was like living
21 in that house because nobody -- there was all
22 this noise, but nobody said a thing from the
23 entire Town of Secaucus. They saw us, and they
24 knew who we were. It was just dead silence.
25 Yes, we made -- I mean, we went into the house;
78
1 and we locked the door.
2 You could say, well, you made your own
3 prison.
4 Well, we had no choice. What were we
5 to do? We were trying to move out. The people
6 that you turn to in situations like this, I
7 mean, you usually -- were the police. We had
8 nowhere to go. When push comes to shove, no
9 matter how you might dislike the police, I think
10 everyone in their heart thinks that they will be
11 available in times of trouble. If you're
12 attacked by someone, you assume that they'll do
13 something. Well, we didn't even have that
14 option anymore.
15 we were like trapped rats in the house.
16 And you know what we did? It's so pathetic. We
17 turned on each other. We began to fight. We
18 were scared. I would clench up. I would stay
19 at work later. I'm not one for overtime. I
20 like to get my work done and get home. But I
21 would welcome the chance to stay at work longer.
22 I would leave before 7 in the morning. I
23 wouldn't get home until 6:30 or 7 at night.
24 That's a routine day. If I was on deadline, I
25 would stay until 10, 11 at night.
79
1 My guts would clench up as I drove into
2 Secaucus. I had two or three traffic lights to
3 go through. Every time, you know, you'd stop at
4 the light and, you know, you look this way, look
5 that way, left and right. You see who's in the
6 cars or in the trucks. Lot of trucks. Lot of
7 pickup trucks. And you would think, Is it one
8 of them, you know, sitting right next to you?
9 My psychiatrist is Dr. Jack Almeleh.
10 And I would have to see him in the evening
11 because Montvale is a long way away and he is in
12 Manhattan. So he would schedule them -- I would
13 leave work early -- I had an arrangement with my
14 boss -- and make my way to Manhattan.
15 Anyways, it would be dark when I came
16 home. By the time I made it home, invariably it
17 was dark, it was after 9, 10:00. The bus no
18 longer went up Paterson Plank Road because that
19 only did that during rush hour. So I would have
20 to walk from Downtown Secaucus up Paterson Plank
21 Road, past the firehouse to get home. And you
22 know, I'd go -- as I made my way up, I mean, you
23 know, every person you see, every person you
24 see, you check them out. You check them out
25 until you get close enough and you can see that
80
1 they're not a threat.
2 And then, of course, there is the final
3 stretch. If there was someone in the firehouse,
4 I wouldn't go past it. I would make sure that
5 the firehouse was -- you know, at that point
6 they were either all inside -- but if the big
7 door was open or any of the doors, if there was
8 someone in the parking lot, and I would
9 backtrack and do a big circle around, you know.
10 And I would -- but I would not go past the
11 firehouse at night. I mean, I was afraid. I
12 considered it foolish.
13 MR. MULLIN: Okay. Your Honor, is
14 it possible to take midmorning break here?
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure. We will take
16 the morning break. Ladies and Gentlemen, if you
17 will come back at 11:15. Thank you.
18 Off the record.
19 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
20 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
21 JUDGE CURRAN: You may step down.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
24 taken.)
25 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
81
1 approaching.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
3 COURT CLERK: On the record.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
5 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
6 into the courtroom.)
7 JUDGE CURRAN: You may be seated,
8 Mr. deVries. It's my obligation to remind you,
9 sir, that you are still under oath.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
12 Mr. Mullin.
13 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Your
14 Honor.
15 BY MR. MULLIN:
16 Q Peter, from the incident of
17 April 25th, 2004 until you finally left work on
18 disability, how long was that approximately?
19 A It was almost a year.
20 Q About a year?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q You kept going to work during --
23 A Yes.
24 Q Can you tell the jury the events
25 as they unfolded that led up to your going out
82
1 on disability after that year? The incidents at
2 work, can you describe what was going on as time
3 passed?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Thank you.
6 A Yes. Initially I thought everything was
7 fine, you know, because, as I said earlier, I
8 used work as a bit of an escape, to escape from,
9 you know, the home; but gradually things became
10 more difficult. One of the things that I did
11 initially was I constructed this very nice, what
12 I thought was, screen saver. And it turned out
13 these were all pictures of forest fires that I
14 had found on the web. And I thought it was
15 actually -- I thought nothing of it. It's kind
16 of nice, you know, they fade in, fade out,
17 whatever.
18 And at work they knew what had
19 happened. One day the human resources director
20 came in to talk to me about something and she
21 pointed to the screen and she said, "Get rid of
22 that." And she was a nice lady, but I knew when
23 she meant business. So then I -- you know, that
24 told me there was something wrong with it.
25 I began to have difficulties. I --
83
1 I -- with reading, concentration and focus,
2 juggling these many items. I don't think -- you
3 may not know; I have been in the past an avid
4 reader. I collect first editions. I have
5 about -- modern first editions is what my
6 category. And I'd say I have between two and
7 3,000 first edition books that I am very proud
8 of. And I treasure them a great deal. These
9 are from authors that I really like.
10 And I used to be able to read a book a
11 week, provided there weren't too many overtimes.
12 After April 24, nothing. I'd pick up a book,
13 wade through two paragraphs, have to go through
14 them again, again and again because my mind
15 would wander off.
16 And this began to manifest itself at
17 work. Mistakes. Fortunately, some of them I
18 could rescue. Some of them just weren't
19 noticed. But the real danger was to get
20 something prominent in print that was wrong
21 because I -- you know, before the stuff goes to
22 press a number of people looked at it besides
23 me. But it was my responsibility, and I had the
24 final sign-off on my projects. And if it came
25 back from the printer, if they had printed any
84
1 quantity of them, it's too late.
2 I had to work even longer because as a
3 result I was slower, you know.
4 And it was more the stuff that
5 manifested itself at home, as far as withdrawal
6 was concerned, started to happen to me at work.
7 I found it more difficult -- I found it very
8 difficult -- at home I don't answer the phone.
9 I never answer the phone. I won't even return
10 phone messages.
11 Well, I had to interact constantly with
12 physicians, with people on the outside, clients
13 and whatever. I would delay and delay and delay
14 and delay. I mean, it's just like you know you
15 have to pick up the phone. You know, you should
16 pick up the phone. I even reach for the phone
17 and touch it and then, oh, no, no, no, I can do
18 that later and whatever. And you keep on going.
19 I picked a screaming argument -- well,
20 I had an argument with my boss in my office.
21 The door was open. And she had closed the door.
22 But anyways, I was -- I don't know if I was
23 screaming, but I was yelling at her.
24 Two times I broke down in the office
25 and started to cry in front of other people. It
85
1 was extremely embarrassing, extremely
2 embarrassing. People were polite; but you know,
3 nothing is ever mentioned.
4 It got to the point where I thought I'm
5 being watched. I got paranoid. I mean, I'm --
6 I mean, I was paranoid at home. I became
7 paranoid at work. I thought they're probably
8 placing bets on how long it will be before
9 deVries loses it completely and runs out of the
10 office screaming. I mean, they knew why it was,
11 I suppose, you know.
12 So I ground on and on and on and on. I
13 mean, we needed -- this is my -- this is -- we
14 needed the income. I could not afford to give
15 up the job. There is -- my pride was at stake
16 too. And -- so I worked longer, worked longer.
17 It's like being on a treadmill or -- or -- or,
18 you know, when you're in the water and you --
19 what do they call that -- and you don't move,
20 you just stand there.
21 Q Treading water?
22 A Treading water, maintaining the status
23 quo. Anyways, I discussed this with Jack and,
24 you know --
25 Q Is that Jack Almeleh?
86
1 A Jack Almeleh, Dr. Almeleh. And you know,
2 as it was going on. And you know, I said,
3 "Jack, you know, this is not good. I'm going to
4 snap. I'm at the end of my tether."
5 Added to this there is the thing that
6 the commute -- here -- this is the type of thing
7 I would do. I had -- I would drive up the -- up
8 the Garden Valley Parkway. And I would have
9 loud, loud, loud, angry or maudlin, sad -- it
10 varied, mixed -- music with this song, my own
11 special song, going through my head, which is,
12 "We will kill you, you fucking faggots. We will
13 kill you and your fucking dogs." Can you
14 imagine going to work every day?
15 I mean -- and it just -- I mean, before
16 you know it -- you try not to think about it,
17 you know; you don't encourage it. But there it
18 is. And I would wonder about why, if I wasn't
19 angry. I would wonder about why? Why? What
20 did I do? What did I do? I drive in the left
21 lane, 80-some miles an hour, as fast as I could
22 go. And there were times when you're whipping
23 under the overpasses. I mean, I never -- I
24 never -- I'd think, Oh, you know, just a little
25 flick to the left or the right will take care of
87
1 everything.
2 We were either waiting to move with
3 that pressure -- we had moved to Jersey City.
4 And it turned out that things were not much
5 better there.
6 MR. PARIS: May we be heard?
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Certainly.
8 MR. MULLIN: Hold on one second,
9 Peter.
10 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
11 discussion is held.)
12 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I'm
13 loathed to interrupt a witness while they're
14 testifying. But Mr. Mullin asked a question
15 about what was going on at work, and that was
16 probably about five or ten minutes ago. And now
17 we're getting an answer -- now -- and because
18 the witness is going so far afield in terms of
19 narratives, it does not give me an opportunity
20 to object when an objection may be appropriate.
21 Now, for example, he is now
22 starting to talk about Jersey City. I have no
23 idea what he is going to say because Jersey
24 City --
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Can you do it, Miss
88
1 Castelli?
2 COURT CLERK: It has to be --
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Just moved? Thank
4 you.
5 MR. PARIS: Because Jersey City
6 had nothing to do with the question. Mr. Mullin
7 asked about what was going on at work. So
8 how -- how do we know what this witness is going
9 to say now, when he is going through these
10 narratives? I only ask that Mr. Mullin ask a
11 question and that he gets an answer to that
12 particular question without the narratives that
13 are -- seem to be going very far afield.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
15 MR. MULLIN: The witness has been
16 completely responsive to my question. He has
17 talked about his emotional deterioration at
18 work, and then he talked about his emotional
19 deterioration commuting to work.
20 Now, he remained on the job for
21 another six months while he was in Jersey City.
22 What he was about to talk about, I believe, is
23 how the -- this emotional deterioration
24 continued at work, even while he was in Jersey
25 City; but I can focus him on that.
89
1 JUDGE CURRAN: If you will --
2 MR. MULLIN: Sure.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: -- I would
4 appreciate it. I mean, I think, in fairness,
5 the witness is responsive throughout his
6 testimony.
7 But also in fairness, he does --
8 he is not just answering quick questions.
9 That's the nature of this case. But in fairness
10 to the defense, I think it is difficult for them
11 to basically know when or if to interrupt, which
12 is basically what the objections do. And in
13 fairness, I have to say I think the defense is
14 trying to be professional about the way they are
15 objecting. So if -- and he does also seem to
16 take direction very carefully.
17 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: As soon as you say,
19 he focuses back in.
20 MR. MULLIN: Yes, I'll focus him
21 more at this point. I think it's -- I think
22 there is some case law, actually. Because I'm
23 supposed to ask non-leading questions, the
24 narrative testimony by a plaintiff is
25 appropriate, as long as it's responsive to a
90
1 question. But I will focus this question more.
2 I will -- I will do this now.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Right. And even
4 narrative answers have their limits. And I
5 think that's part of the concern.
6 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
7 MR. PARIS: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
9 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
10 concluded.)
11 BY MR. MULLIN:
12 Q Peter, I'll focus you a little at
13 this point.
14 A Okay.
15 Q You have been describing to the
16 jury your emotional deterioration at work at
17 Thomson. And -- and then you -- you spoke --
18 you mentioned your emotional things happening
19 during your commute to and from Thomson. And
20 then you said this continued in Jersey City.
21 Again, to focus you now -- oh, excuse me, did I
22 misspeak? You're at Dowden. I misspoke. I
23 said, "Thomson." Dowden is where you were
24 working --
25 A Yeah.
91
1 Q -- now at Montvale? So now at
2 some point you moved to Jersey City. And to
3 keep you focused on this topic, did these
4 feelings you're describing at work continue even
5 after? On November 11th or thereabouts 2004 you
6 and Tim moved to Jersey City?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. Can you continue with your
9 description again of the --
10 A Yeah.
11 Q -- deterioration at work?
12 A Okay. Okay. The move to Jersey City
13 made no difference as far as the -- my -- my
14 gradual slide, I guess, at work, which continued
15 at a -- you know, at a slow rate. And I -- I
16 was being -- I was beginning -- I'm -- stretched
17 like a rubber band. You know, I mean, just --
18 and at what point would one break?
19 I talked to Jack, Dr. Almeleh, my
20 psychiatrist. He said, "Peter, you need to take
21 a few days off."
22 I said, "Well, I can't, you know. I
23 got this, this, this, this."
24 You know, he said, "You have to take a
25 few days off."
92
1 Okay. So finally --
2 Q Did you take a few days off?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay. And again, just to kind of
5 move forward on this piece of your testimony,
6 did you ultimately -- do you remember when you
7 left work --
8 A It was --
9 Q -- at Dowden?
10 A Yes, it was towards the end of April,
11 2005. I don't remember the exact day, but I did
12 called in sick and I took some sick days. And
13 that gradually -- then I went on short-term
14 disability. And then I went onto long-term
15 disability.
16 Q And then did you finally -- when
17 long-term disability ran out --
18 A Now I am on Social Security disability.
19 Q Disability. Okay. There is one
20 loose end I left. You said that right on the
21 eve of the incident happening on April 24th,
22 25th, 2004, right on the eve of that, while you
23 were working up at Dowden in Montvale, you had
24 been offered a job back at -- at Thomson in
25 Secaucus; is that right? And would you just
93
1 tell the jury what ever became of that?
2 A Yes, yes, on Monday morning, the first
3 day back at work, which would be the 26th of
4 April, was sort of a deadline I had given myself
5 to hand in the -- my resignation at -- at
6 Dowden. Anyways, I think I delayed it; I don't
7 know.
8 Ultimately what happened was I could
9 not go back to work in Secaucus, to drive from
10 my house in Secaucus to an office building in
11 the other side of Secaucus. I called up Thomson
12 and said, "I don't know how you phrase this, but
13 I am withdrawing my application. I'm sorry." I
14 sketched out since this -- what had happened
15 very quickly, since it was, you know, just a few
16 days later, and withdrew from that.
17 Q When you say you sketched out what
18 happened, just for the record, what do you mean
19 you sketched out what happened? What were you
20 talking to them about?
21 A I -- I said, "We have been the victims of
22 a bias incident, a harassment attack by the
23 firemen. Our house was attacked by the" -- "by
24 a group of firemen." You know, I roughly
25 outlined. I mean, it wasn't like, you know,
94
1 someone screamed "queer" from a car that made me
2 give up a job.
3 Q Now, during the period of time
4 from when you moved to Jersey City to the
5 present have you continued to handle your and
6 Tim's -- your and Tim's finances, including tax
7 filings?
8 A Yes, but I haven't done this year's yet.
9 Q But have you continued to be aware
10 of the finances of your family, you and Tim?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Can you tell us -- Tim --
13 Tim has described a few jobs, part-time jobs he
14 held. Can you tell us approximately what Tim
15 has earned per year 2005, 2006, 2007 and what it
16 looks like he is going to earn now?
17 MR. PARIS: Objection, Your Honor.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Basis?
19 MR. PARIS: This is not part of
20 the claim that's been submitted.
21 MR. MULLIN: I don't understand.
22 MR. PARIS: It's irrelevant. It's
23 irrelevant.
24 MR. MULLIN: We probably should be
25 heard sidebar.
95
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Go to sidebar.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Is the objection
5 based on the expert report?
6 MR. PARIS: Well, there's been --
7 there is no expert testimony. There has been no
8 claim made for lost earnings by Tim Carter.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Right, the expert
10 report was only on deVries.
11 MR. MULLIN: Yeah, I'm not -- you
12 don't need an expert in a discrimination case,
13 for that matter, in any case to establish
14 economic loss. So I --
15 JUDGE CURRAN: You can't -- you
16 can't say in any case you don't need an expert.
17 MR. MULLIN: Certainly antitrust
18 case you better have an expert, so I take it
19 back.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: No, other cases
21 too; but okay, separate issue.
22 MR. MULLIN: Certainly in a
23 discrimination case, Civil Rights case you don't
24 need an expert to establish economic damages.
25 So he is -- he is --
96
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, my concern is
2 more their position is that there is no claim.
3 MR. MULLIN: Well, that's
4 interesting. I -- I guess I don't know what
5 they mean by that.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. Mr. Paris.
7 MR. PARIS: Let's start with this.
8 Number one, you -- the testimony of Dr.
9 Bursztajn -- Bursztajn indicated that
10 Mr. deVries was disabled. Was disabled, okay.
11 Did not indicate that Mr. Carter was disabled.
12 Did not indicate any proximate causation between
13 any psychiatric injury and Mr. Carter's earnings
14 or job that he might perform or any of that.
15 So -- and then Dr. Marcus didn't
16 make any calculations to whether there were any
17 lost wages by Mr. Carter.
18 So I don't know where this is
19 coming from. In other words, no one has ever --
20 even Mr. Carter didn't testify to what his
21 earnings were at one point in time versus
22 another point in time. He never even testified
23 that he thought that he lost income because of
24 this incident. There is no -- there is no
25 foundation at all for any of this to come in
97
1 through or Mr. Carter.
2 MR. MULLIN: I disagree. There is
3 the expert. Dr. Bursztajn testified that both
4 of these men were completely disabled. And I
5 don't even -- I don't need an expert in a
6 discrimination case to show economic loss. I
7 don't need an expert in a discrimination case to
8 show emotional injury. That's the Rendine case.
9 And there are a number of other cases after
10 Rendine. It's just not required. I don't think
11 this is very significant economic loss, but I --
12 I just don't see why it should not be in this
13 case.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: What about their
15 question of Mr. Carter's testimony or lack
16 thereof?
17 MR. MULLIN: I didn't have Carter
18 testify about it because Mr. Carter has severe
19 ADD and because Peter deVries handles all their
20 finances. So -- so those -- those are two
21 reasons why I didn't have him deal with this
22 kind of -- these kind of details. And
23 Mr. Carter testified that Peter deVries handles
24 all of their finances. And -- and so that's
25 what's happening.
98
1 Now, in fairness to the
2 defense -- they say it's not raised in the case.
3 I -- I have a feeling the complaint sought
4 economic damages, as well as emotional distress.
5 I would be happy to check the complaint. I
6 never saw it as a -- as a --
7 JUDGE CURRAN: I thought that was
8 true in the beginning because, frankly, I made a
9 note that Mr. Carter didn't testify as to any --
10 just to myself.
11 MR. PARIS: At this point we
12 should be way beyond what's been alleged in the
13 complaint. Now we are at the point where the
14 proofs are being put on the record. Mr. Carter
15 doesn't testify. And you know, we can't -- we
16 can't -- no one has come forward and said that
17 Mr. Carter should be excused from certain
18 testimony because of ADD.
19 When Mr. Mullin was questioning
20 Mr. Carter, he was right on target, right on
21 point. So to say because he has ADD he
22 shouldn't be testifying as to what his jobs were
23 or what he was earning, there was never any
24 testimony that he had no idea what he was
25 earning.
99
1 And there has been no testimony
2 Mr. Carter is unable to work. In fact, he is
3 working now. I mean, you know, where this is
4 coming from, there is absolutely no foundation
5 for it anywhere.
6 Dr. Bursztajn didn't indicate
7 that he was disabled the way he testified about
8 Mr. deVries. Dr. Marcus didn't testify about
9 Mr. Carter the way he testified about
10 Mr. deVries. And even Mr. Carter didn't testify
11 about his inability to work. There was no
12 testimony about him being unable to work. So
13 whether it's in the complaint or not, we are way
14 beyond that at this point.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Dr. Marcus is
16 separate issue. But Dr. Bursztajn, I don't
17 remember his testifying that Mr. deVries -- and
18 obviously, we have Tracey and the dailies --
19 that Mr. Carter had to take a different kind of
20 job, had to take a lesser responsible, less
21 financially remunerative job. I don't remember
22 any testimony --
23 MS. SMITH: He did, Your Honor. I
24 put on Bursztajn, so I can really remember this.
25 He said now he works a couple hours a week at
100
1 most as -- in a florist. Dr. Bursztajn
2 definitely addressed his underemployment because
3 of his PTSD.
4 MR. MULLIN: We can check that.
5 MS. SMITH: I can check the
6 transcript because I put him on.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Wasn't he only --
8 only working a couple hours a week before that?
9 In April he was only working a few hours a
10 week -- hour -- few hours.
11 MS. SMITH: And he was forming
12 that nonprofit. Mr. Bursztajn also spoke about
13 ADD something. Add-On or something like that.
14 He was forming a nonprofit and working at Kohl's
15 and -- and, as he testified, finding himself.
16 He wasn't permanently unemployed.
17 And then, what happened at Kohl's
18 Dr. Bursztajn did talk about. And then he
19 talked about and now, you know, you have
20 somebody who is very into philanthropy, had jobs
21 and was finding himself, now doing a couple
22 hours a week at a florist, which is exactly what
23 Dr. Bursztajn said, talking about his
24 underemployment.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: I do remember that.
101
1 I, frankly, did not take the testimony in regard
2 to the nonprofit as a lost wages issue because,
3 obviously, that wasn't a wage issue.
4 MR. PARIS: Judge, what Mr. Carter
5 also testified is -- to is that he works for the
6 State and that he does per diem work for the
7 State.
8 MR. BEVERE: And that the work was
9 not necessarily available at all times he needed
10 it to be, but not that he was incapable of doing
11 it.
12 MR. PARIS: There was --
13 MS. SMITH: Dr. Bursztajn talked
14 about that, as well, Your Honor. His employment
15 has definitely been an issue. Dr. Bursztajn
16 talked about how that was meaningful when he met
17 with him and how he doesn't do that anymore for
18 the State.
19 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, would you
20 like us to pause and take a break and look at
21 the transcripts?
22 JUDGE CURRAN: I think we really
23 have to do that.
24 MS. SMITH: Are we talking about
25 excluding testimony for the economic --
102
1 MR. MULLIN: We can look at the
2 transcript, clear some of this stuff --
3 JUDGE CURRAN: The only thing I
4 would ask you, Mr. Mullin, you indicated there
5 isn't a great claim or something of that nature.
6 MR. MULLIN: No.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm not asking you
8 to get into your trial strategy, but we also
9 don't want to make a mountain out of a
10 molehill --
11 MR. PARIS: No, of course not.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: -- in regard to
13 this issue. Why don't we maybe let the jury go
14 to lunch early, if that's okay. We will bring
15 the jury back at --
16 MR. MULLIN: Can we get them
17 one-and-a-half hour because we have that new
18 witness coming on.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, do you want
20 to interrupt him, or would you want --
21 MR. MULLIN: I don't mind.
22 MS. SMITH: I prefer not to put
23 him on and take him right off, you know, because
24 if we say 1, we are really getting the jury --
25 we are really talking about 1:10 and the new
103
1 witness is --
2 JUDGE CURRAN: I was really
3 thinking we would just give them one hour and
4 ask them to come back. I will do whatever you
5 want, but I just don't want to run out of time
6 for you this afternoon.
7 MR. PARIS: What the possibility
8 is -- if they go out for an hour and come back,
9 let's say, at 10 of 1, would you be able to
10 finish with your direct by 1:30?
11 MR. MULLIN: Yeah, I mean --
12 MR. PARIS: At least the direct
13 will be done. We put on the second witness.
14 Then I cross, which will probably be done by the
15 end of the day.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Why don't we do
17 this? Why don't we let them have an hour. We
18 can adjust it. You may find something else you
19 need to argue about in this regard. At least we
20 will have the jury in and out, then we will
21 adjust it. We know your witness has to go on at
22 1:30.
23 MS. SMITH: Thank you.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
25 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
104
1 concluded.)
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
3 Gentlemen, we have -- we have some issues that
4 have to be discussed. And rather than have you
5 waiting here, we are going to give you the lunch
6 break early today. So we will ask that you take
7 an hour for lunch and be back about quarter to
8 1, 10 to 1. I think I said that right. I
9 usually get the hours wrong, if I don't do them
10 exactly the same.
11 And again I will remind you
12 please do not discuss the case among yourselves.
13 Please don't discuss the case with anyone else.
14 Thank you.
15 Off the record.
16 (Whereupon, the jury is excused
17 for lunch.)
18
19 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess is
20 taken.)
21 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
22 JUDGE CURRAN: If you'll bring the
23 jury out, please.
24 Mr. deVries, you can take the
25 stand, if you'd like.
105
1 MR. MULLIN: I just want to tell
2 him something.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
4 COURT CLERK: On the record.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
6 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
7 approaching.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Back on
9 the record in the matter of deVries and Carter
10 versus Secaucus.
11 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
12 into the courtroom.)
13 JUDGE CURRAN: The jury is
14 returning to the jury box. Counsel and parties
15 are present.
16 Thank you. Please be seated.
17 Mr. deVries, again I'm required to remind you
18 that you are still under oath.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you, sir.
21 Mr. Mullin.
22 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: I apologize.
24 Before we move on, you are going to hear a
25 question or two right now from Mr. Mullin; and
106
1 then Mr. deVries will answer. I just want to
2 clarify for you these questions are questions in
3 regard to Mr. Carter. There is, however, no
4 claim for economic damages by Mr. Carter. And
5 we'll go into that at the end.
6 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, can we
7 clarify there is a claim for emotional distress.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Oh, yes, there
9 certainly is a claim for economic damages on
10 behalf of Mr. deVries, not on behalf of
11 Mr. Carter.
12 Thank you, Mr. Mullin.
13 MR. MULLIN: And Your Honor, a
14 claim for emotional distress on behalf of both.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Absolutely. Thank
16 you.
17 BY MR. MULLIN:
18 Q Peter, I just want to finish up a
19 loose end from before the break. Over the
20 period say the year 2005, 2006, 2007 and
21 projected into 2008 just approximately how much
22 income has Tim been bringing into the household
23 approximately?
24 A Less than 5,000.
25 Q Less than 5,000 a year? Now, I
107
1 know you're not a psychologist. And we have had
2 psychological testing. But can you give the
3 jury some of your impressions about Tim's
4 behavioral changes that you have observed since
5 the incident right up to the present?
6 A Yes, yes, I can. Tim, in spite of his
7 ADD, had considerable focus and determination to
8 get on with his life. And that seems to just
9 have fallen apart. Something has happened to
10 him. Something has been broken in him.
11 He used to read like me. He was an
12 avid reader. When he -- except I read fiction;
13 he read politics, biographies of the
14 president -- presidents, you know, anything. I
15 have not seen him read a book like that for
16 years. If he reads anything, it's fluff.
17 He has panic attacks that I found very
18 difficult to deal with. First, I didn't know
19 what they were. They involved basically three
20 things. And it's vomiting, excessive sweating;
21 and when it gets really bad, apnea or, you know,
22 difficulty breathing. On at least one occasion
23 I was seriously considering calling the EMS.
24 But fortunately, you know, the symptoms
25 subsided. As to what causes them, I don't know.
108
1 They have -- they have happened in the last few
2 months. There seem -- I can't find any
3 precipitating factor and except in Jersey City
4 around the time when the firemen were an issue.
5 I believe that's all I'm allowed to say about
6 it.
7 Q Okay.
8 A And as soon as we moved into Jersey City
9 we had the newspapers again. We live on the
10 fourth floor of this apartment building. Very
11 large windows, they overlook other houses. It's
12 not -- we're not staring into another apartment
13 building. It's just -- you know, there is two,
14 three-story houses; and then there are trees
15 that come up that are built very close to the
16 building. Well, we had barely gotten in there
17 and, low and behold, he is papering over all
18 these windows in the new apartment. And again,
19 I took them down, you know.
20 He built a or made, jerry-rigged
21 something that was supposed to look like a
22 security camera. He had asked me. I said, "No,
23 we can't afford to buy a security camera." And
24 so he jerry-rigged something, put it up over the
25 apartment door, you know, made out of wood,
109
1 cardboard and what have you, little pieces of
2 metal and put that up there. And again, I took
3 it down.
4 He -- I worry. I worry a great deal
5 about Tim. He -- something fundamental about
6 which I think is the saddest things --
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
8 Gentlemen, can you hear the witness?
9 I'm sorry, Mr. deVries, if you
10 can speak more loudly, please.
11 A I am an immigrant, and Tim is not. And
12 he is born and raised American. He grew up
13 very, very proud of his heritage. His family,
14 you know, he can date his family back for a long
15 time. So he has been entrenched in this country
16 for many, many years. And I used to -- when we
17 first met, I used to joke about it, you know,
18 his pro-Americanism. And until I realized it
19 was -- honestly was no joking matter for him.
20 And I just let it drop.
21 Having to have lived these four years
22 the way that we have lived, when we asked for
23 very, very, very little, something that I think
24 all of you would ask at the drop of a hat, I was
25 attacked, shouldn't something be done? And that
110
1 was denied to him. And I think that's broken
2 his spirit. It is tied into his feelings about
3 this country. I think he has experienced a
4 great disappointment. A great disappointment.
5 And I -- I, you know --
6 Q Peter.
7 A Okay. Go ahead.
8 Q Have you -- Dr. Bursztajn talked
9 about hypervigilance on the --
10 A Oh, yes.
11 Q Have you observed any behaviors
12 consistent with what Dr. Bursztajn said?
13 A Yes, yes, yes. We manifest it in
14 different ways, and Tim's is -- in Secaucus he'd
15 awaken me at 3 -- it was always at night. He'd
16 awaken me at 3:00 in the morning and -- to give
17 you an example, there was -- there was someone
18 in the bushes behind our yard just adjacent to
19 the firehouse and -- and apartment buildings
20 beyond that. And so I got up and I looked and
21 looked and looked.
22 Q This is after the April 25th
23 incident?
24 A Yes, that summer. And -- and yeah, well,
25 I mean, if I looked long enough, I could see
111
1 something. I could see something. So what do
2 we do? Well, we got into the car. I said, "We
3 can get into the car, if you promise to keep the
4 doors locked." We got into the car, and I drove
5 around. It's a short way. It actually is a
6 drive, but you know -- and we carefully,
7 carefully approached the bushes. And nothing.
8 Nothing, you know.
9 And this type of behavior has
10 continued. He -- he -- in Jersey City he calls
11 me to the windows on the fourth floor, and he
12 sees people who look like firemen on the roofs
13 of the houses next door. One time he called the
14 police because he was afraid there was someone
15 crawling up -- climbing the trees that are right
16 in front of the building. And conceivably,
17 someone could climb up and make a leap to the
18 window. And the police did respond to that. So
19 these type of things happen to him.
20 Q When you look out -- did you look
21 out the window to see if there was anybody in
22 the trees?
23 A There was no one in the trees. And I
24 don't have the heart -- what do you say? I
25 don't have the heart to tell him he's --
112
1 Q Now, Tim and Dr. Bursztajn have
2 testified about you and your behavior, so I'm
3 not going to have you go on there long. But you
4 have spoken to this jury about the fear you felt
5 and during the incident and the six months. And
6 you also talked about what went on at work for
7 that -- that year before you left work. Can you
8 share with the jury anything about whether or
9 not that fear pursued you to Jersey City, how
10 you felt?
11 A Yes, it did. It did. Particularly when
12 we realized they knew where we lived and this --
13 you know, to speak for myself, I have become
14 very reclusive. I do not like to go outside.
15 If it wasn't for the dog who has to be walked, I
16 probably wouldn't go outside much. You walk
17 down the street, anything that looks vaguely
18 familiar in terms of pickup trucks, you stop,
19 you look. You look at the license plates. You
20 know, you look. Can you see anyone?
21 The other night I was walking the dog
22 at about 11:00, and I heard footsteps behind me.
23 Just out of the blue, all of the sudden there
24 were footsteps. And I didn't know what to do.
25 I thought, It's one of them. And I made an ass
113
1 out of myself, you know. I backed into -- swung
2 around and backed into a driveway very quickly
3 with the dog. I mean, I know nothing about
4 self-defense. And it was an ordinary -- you
5 know, the guy gave me a funny look, you know,
6 why was I behaving so peculiarly, and went on.
7 It was not a fireman.
8 With Mr. Snyder appearing in this
9 court, the possibility exists that he'll come
10 after us, he and his gang. And why do I say
11 that? I mean, the vent -- the venom -- what
12 they expressed in 12 minutes, if you know how
13 long that 12 minutes lasted and the venom and
14 the hatred that they could go on and on and on
15 and on like this for 12 long minutes. And who
16 knows what they would have done if they had
17 gotten in the house? May have -- these guys I
18 would describe as crazy, berserk.
19 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, may we be
20 heard?
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
22 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
23 discussion is held.)
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris.
25 MR. PARIS: This is a follow-up to
114
1 my previous objection. He is going so far
2 afield of the question that's been asked. Now
3 he is describing the incident again. He is
4 speculating about Mr. Snyder is going to come
5 after him. This is the problem here. He is
6 supposed to be asked a question and give an
7 answer. I mean, now he is going to go and
8 relate the whole incident over again. That's
9 what he is starting to do. I mean, what is the
10 point of that?
11 MR. MULLIN: He is talking about
12 his current emotional feelings today, now and in
13 the -- and in the recent past and how he
14 experiences seeing these men. He is describing
15 classical posttraumatic stress disorder
16 feelings. He is talking about his feelings.
17 And yes, he loops back to -- and relives what's
18 happening with -- perhaps a juror might even
19 think he is reliving it right now. What he is
20 saying has some emotionality to it.
21 This is how you prove emotional
22 distress damages. I don't know any other way
23 other than with the expert, Tim's observations.
24 These are his own anxieties, and he is answering
25 the question exactly about how is his fear
115
1 manifesting itself to the present. And he is
2 talking about a very specific thing right now,
3 which is how he felt after seeing this -- the
4 Snyders on the witness stand and it triggered a
5 reflection on how -- how venomous and hatred the
6 people were. And he is talking about his
7 current fears, they will come after him and get
8 him.
9 This is all in Dr. Bursztajn's
10 presentation, Your Honor. It's just classical
11 emotional distress testimony by a guy suffering
12 posttraumatic stress disorder.
13 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, if
14 that's -- if that's the reason why he is
15 testifying the way he is, then he theoretically
16 could repeat the exact same scenario five or six
17 times because he just wants to keep repeating
18 it. I think the question was, "Tell us how" --
19 "Tell us whether these feelings left when you
20 went to Jersey City."
21 And the answer should be, "No."
22 And then, you know, "Explain
23 yourself."
24 And if he says, "Look, I relive
25 the event" or, you know, "I think about the
116
1 event" would be one thing. But for him to keep
2 testifying about the event, I mean, what's --
3 JUDGE CURRAN: In fairness,
4 Mr. Paris, I believe that the little that I have
5 read about posttraumatic stress, he could,
6 you're right, repeat things three or four or
7 five times. But we are not at that point yet.
8 At this point this is the first real time that
9 he is repeating it.
10 I think the record will speak for
11 itself, but I -- I believe he is answering the
12 question that was asked. And he is exactly
13 talking about his present feelings in regard to
14 the incident.
15 I can assure you that if he
16 starts on his third time around on the event,
17 I'm sure we will be over here; and I will
18 probably sustain the objection at that point.
19 But at this point he really is just on the
20 first -- for the first time going over what his
21 present fears are.
22 So the objection is preserved.
23 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
25 MR. MULLIN: Let me ask you this
117
1 also.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: But he need --
3 excuse me.
4 MR. MULLIN: I think I may be very
5 close to the end with my direct. I am wondering
6 if this isn't a time when we should go out in
7 the hall and see if Dee Bardini is ready; or
8 should we just go on?
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Why don't you just
10 finish?
11 MR. MULLIN: That's what I'm
12 saying. I will finish the direct.
13 MR. PARIS: Then we will take a
14 break.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Then we can take a
16 short break. Thank you.
17 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
18 concluded.)
19 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, can you
20 indicate the ruling on the objection?
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes, thank you.
22 The objection was overruled. It
23 is preserved for the record.
24 MR. MULLIN: Okay. Thank you.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
118
1 BY MR. MULLIN:
2 Q Peter, you were -- maybe you
3 finished; I don't know. You have been talking
4 about the feelings you have been feeling
5 especially since seeing Snyder -- Snyders on the
6 stand; is that correct?
7 A Yes, I last Thursday -- it wasn't this --
8 when he appeared, it was not this past weekend
9 but the weekend before; when we came home, I
10 said to Tim -- I said, "You're not going out
11 after dark tonight." And he looked at me kind
12 of puzzled, and finally he got the connection.
13 And I said, "Tim, you never know. You never
14 know." They're perfectly capable of it; I am
15 convinced. They will not come alone. They will
16 come in a group two or more. We were here last
17 week.
18 We have this layer of fear now that has
19 been added to our lives, something that we have
20 to live with. And I'm beginning to think, Do we
21 have to move from New Jersey -- Jersey City too?
22 Where do we have to move to? Where? For what?
23 Why? I'm afraid.
24 When I go to see Jack Almeleh, I will
25 not go into a restaurant to order food. I'd
119
1 rather go hungry all day and go home. Why do I
2 do that? Why do I do that? All this peculiar
3 behavior.
4 When I walk the dog, day or night, I'm
5 hypertuned to always looking, always looking,
6 always looking. Every green truck, chances are
7 that it's all -- they are all Jersey City
8 trucks. But I look. Where is the label on the
9 side? You know, this is what you have been
10 reduced to, looking at license plates. Looking
11 at men of a particular height, a particular
12 build. Are they them, or are they a friend?
13 Because they have indicated that they will go to
14 some trouble to do something to us. So am I
15 expected to say, "Oh, no, they're not going to
16 do anything; they're nice guys"? Seeing them up
17 here didn't help.
18 Q Okay. This phrase that you talked
19 about, looping around in your mind, we will kill
20 you --
21 A Oh, yes.
22 Q I'll ask you simple question.
23 When you moved into Jersey City, did the phrase
24 leave your mind?
25 A No.
120
1 Q Do you think that thought?
2 A Do I think that thought? Yes, it's there
3 all the time. I mean, not 24 hours a day; but
4 it is -- it comes up at some point every day.
5 And it's just -- you -- do I provoke it? Do I
6 induce it on myself? No, no. Because I'm tired
7 of it, you know. I mean --
8 Q You want to get -- you want to get
9 better, Peter?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You working with Jack Almeleh?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Take medication?
14 A Yes.
15 Q No further questions.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. All
17 right. Miss Smith?
18 MS. SMITH: Judge, the witness
19 that we had asked you about is here and ready to
20 testify.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. With
22 the agreement of the defense, is there any
23 problem in delaying the cross-examination of
24 this witness?
25 MR. PARIS: Not at all, Your
121
1 Honor.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you very
3 much, Mr. Paris.
4 Mr. deVries, you may step down.
5 (Whereupon, the witness steps
6 down.)
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Miss Smith, if you
8 will call the plaintiffs' next witness.
9 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 Plaintiffs call Miss Dee Bardini.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
12 MS. HAWKS: Raise your right hand,
13 please; and place your left hand on the Bible.
14 D E E B A R D I N I, is duly sworn by a Notary.
15 Public of the State of New Jersey and
16 testifies under oath as follows:
17 MS. HAWKS: Thank you. For the
18 record please state your full name and spell
19 your last name, please.
20 THE WITNESS: Dee Bardini,
21 B-a-r-d-i-n-i.
22 MS. HAWKS: Thank you.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. You're
24 under oath. All your testimony must be truthful
25 and accurate to the best of your ability. Do
122
1 you understand?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. If you
4 would please give us your address for the
5 record.
6 THE WITNESS: 121 Dumbarton Hill
7 Court, Aberdeen, New Jersey.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
9 Your witness.
10 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SMITH:
12 Q Good afternoon, Miss Bardini.
13 A Good afternoon.
14 Q You don't live in Secaucus
15 anymore. Did you live in Secaucus previously?
16 A Yes.
17 Q When you lived in Secaucus do you
18 recall an event which required you to call 911?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you recall the date of that
21 event?
22 A Just from the paperwork I've received,
23 but I really wasn't -- it really hadn't
24 registered.
25 Q Okay. If I can refresh your
123
1 recollection. Do you recall calling 911 around
2 the very early morning of April 25th, 2004?
3 A I remember calling 911 in Secaucus and it
4 was nighttime, so it -- that would probably be
5 around the time.
6 Q Had you been sleeping?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. And can you tell us where
9 you lived at the time?
10 A 970 Schopmann Drive in Secaucus.
11 Q And where was that home in
12 relationship to the firehouse?
13 A The -- the back of the firehouse kind
14 of -- this was the back of the firehouse, and
15 this was the back of my -- the -- of my
16 apartment.
17 Q And what floor was your apartment
18 on?
19 A I was on the second floor.
20 Q And did you have external walls
21 that faced the firehouse?
22 A Well, they -- they didn't face exactly
23 the firehouse. They faced Schopmann Drive and
24 Paterson Plank Road. That was right around the
25 corner kind of. It was just a street that came
124
1 to a V, and the two streets met there. And my
2 windows basically faced there.
3 Q And was the firehouse on that
4 corner?
5 A The fire -- the parking lot of the
6 firehouse was right on the corner on that -- on
7 the Paterson Plank side of the corner.
8 Q And had you had occasion to hear
9 the firefighters having parties and -- and being
10 in the firehouse --
11 A I have -- yes, I had.
12 Q -- prior?
13 A Them -- I had heard them being jovial, I
14 mean, whatever.
15 Q And on the night that you called
16 911, I'm sorry, you were sleeping --
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- is that correct? Can you
19 please tell the jury what happened next?
20 A I -- I heard yelling and I -- I was
21 awokened by the yelling. And then I heard
22 something that sounded like a gunshot, and I got
23 down on my knees and called 911.
24 Q You got down on your knees?
25 A I was -- I was afraid. I had -- my
125
1 window was open. I could hear the direction
2 that the sounds were coming from, but I didn't
3 know if -- you know, if somebody was doing
4 something to someone else or just, you know,
5 ranting in the air, you know, I don't know. So
6 I couldn't see anything, so I got down on my
7 knees and just called 911.
8 Q Could you make out any of the
9 words being said?
10 A I -- I heard the word "fag." I heard,
11 "Get out here" or something of that nature,
12 somebody being called outside or something.
13 That's what I heard.
14 Q I have a tape of your call. I am
15 going to ask you, if you don't mind, if we can
16 listen to it and you can tell the jury if that's
17 your voice?
18 A Okay.
19 (Whereupon, a portion of the
20 audiotape is played.)
21 A That's my voice.
22 (Whereupon, the remaining portion
23 of an audiotape is played.)
24 Q Was that the call you made,
25 Miss Bardini?
126
1 A Yes.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry,
3 Miss Smith, what is the exhibit number?
4 MS. SMITH: Oh, I'm so sorry, Your
5 Honor. It's P-390. We have one tape with all
6 three 911 calls.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Oh, okay. Thank
8 you.
9 MS. SMITH: Okay.
10 BY MS. SMITH:
11 Q Miss Bardini, did you believe that
12 that call was anonymous?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Did you want it to be anonymous?
15 A Basically, yes.
16 Q Did there come a time when a
17 police officer called you?
18 A I have vague recollection that somebody
19 called me back. I was under the impression they
20 were just calling me to make sure it wasn't a
21 prank call.
22 Q Is it fair to say that you have no
23 recollection of a police officer ever visiting
24 you in your apartment after this?
25 A No, I have none.
127
1 Q You don't recall ever being asked
2 to go down to the police station --
3 A No.
4 Q -- after this?
5 Q Okay. Thank you, Miss Bardini.
6 Thank you very much.
7 A Thank you.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
9 Mr. Bevere.
10 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BEVERE:
11 Q Miss Bardini, I just have a couple
12 of questions for you.
13 What you heard that night, as you are
14 sitting here today you are not certain that what
15 you heard was a gunshot, correct?
16 A I -- I wouldn't know what a real gunshot
17 sounds like, other than what I have ever heard
18 on TV. But it sounded like what it would sound
19 like.
20 Q You heard a loud noise that night,
21 which is what caused you to call the police?
22 A Right.
23 Q Prior to that night I believe you
24 just testified that you had never actually heard
25 a gunshot. So you were surmising as to what
128
1 that was?
2 A Right.
3 Q And I believe that on the 911 tape
4 you said that you heard a person shouting for
5 someone else to come out of their house; is
6 that -- that correct?
7 A I can't make out what that tape says,
8 but --
9 Q All right.
10 A I mean, little words here and there; but
11 I -- I couldn't string a whole sentence
12 together.
13 Q I understand, Miss Bardini. As
14 you are sitting here today do you recall
15 whether -- whether -- I believe you testified
16 under direct examination that you recalled
17 hearing the word "fag" being yelled?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. But you don't recall any
20 other statements or remarks being yelled aside
21 from "fag"?
22 A Just, "Come" -- "Come out." I heard them
23 calling somebody -- somebody calling somebody
24 out, to come out.
25 Q You heard someone calling someone?
129
1 A Yeah, I -- you know, I -- I don't know if
2 it was more than one voice that I heard or not.
3 Q Okay. You don't have any
4 impression either way, whether it was one voice
5 or more than one voice?
6 A No, I really didn't.
7 Q Okay. And Miss Bardini, I think
8 that I may be done.
9 Do you recall after you heard what you
10 said sounded like a shot, did the noise stop at
11 that point?
12 A After -- well, while -- I don't know what
13 was going on while I was calling 911 because I
14 just went into, I think, flight mode or
15 something. But then I just -- I -- I didn't --
16 everything simmered down after that. I -- you
17 know, and I was trying to calm myself down, as
18 well. So, you know, I was just trying to stay
19 away from the windows and calm myself down, you
20 know.
21 Q So after you called 911 and you
22 heard the noise calm down; is that accurate?
23 A I believe so. I can't -- I can't
24 honestly say anything -- you know, anything
25 after I called 911. I don't recall hearing
130
1 noise after I called 911.
2 Q And Miss Bardini, you were not
3 able to physically see anyone in the parking lot
4 from where your apartment was, correct?
5 A No.
6 Q And Miss Bardini, were -- were you
7 called to appear before the Grand Jury in this
8 case?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Miss Bardini, I have no
11 further questions. Thank you for coming in.
12 A Okay.
13 MS. SMITH: Just two, Your Honor.
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. SMITH:
15 Q Miss Bardini, it sounded enough
16 like a gunshot that you got on your knees,
17 right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Were you scared?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Thank you. Thank you very much.
22 MS. SMITH: No further questions,
23 Your Honor.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Any
25 other questions?
131
1 MR. BEVERE: I have no further
2 questions for Miss Bardini. Once again, I want
3 to thank her for coming in.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Does anyone on the
5 jury have a question for this witness? If so,
6 please raise your hand. Is there anyone on the
7 jury who has a question for the witness?
8 I see no questions, therefore you
9 may step down. Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 (Whereupon, the witness is
12 excused.)
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, do you
14 wish a short break? It's up to you.
15 MR. PARIS: I would take five, if
16 I could.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
18 Gentlemen, if you just want to go into the jury
19 room for a moment, please. Thank you.
20 MR. MULLIN: Five-minute break,
21 Your Honor?
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes. So we would
23 ask that you stay in the jury room, not go
24 downstairs.
25 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
132
1 COURT CLERK: Off the record.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
3 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
4 taken.)
5 JUDGE CURRAN: We'll bring the
6 jury out.
7 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
8 approaching.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
10 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
11 into the courtroom.)
12 COURT CLERK: On the record.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Thank
14 you. Please be seated.
15 And again, Mr. deVries, I am
16 required to remind you that you are still under
17 oath. Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Paris.
19 MR. PARIS: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. PARIS:
21 Q Good afternoon, Mr. deVries. I
22 want to start discussing with you the condoms
23 that were found on your property. The first
24 discussion that you had with Mr. Carter about
25 that was either in late 2003 or early 2004; was
133
1 that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And initially you were mystified
4 when the first one was found because you thought
5 that perhaps the dog had brought it in, correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q You had let the dogs go out off
8 the deck and into the yard and the house; is
9 that true, Mr. deVries?
10 A Yes, they always did that.
11 Q Okay. Now, when the second condom
12 was found, basically you and Mr. Carter
13 speculated on the weirdness of that, correct?
14 A I don't know if it was then or some other
15 time.
16 Q Okay. Now, you know that there
17 was prior testimony that apparently three
18 condoms were found in total?
19 A There may have been --
20 Q Do you recall that? Do you recall
21 that?
22 A I know that three were mentioned in the
23 court, yes.
24 Q And that after the second one was
25 found that you and Mr. Carter didn't discuss
134
1 even the possibility that they came from the
2 firehouse, correct?
3 A No.
4 Q So you're saying that it was after
5 the second one was the first time it was
6 discussed as a possibility that came from the
7 firehouse?
8 A No.
9 Q Mr. -- Mr. deVries, do you
10 remember that the first time that you even
11 discussed the possibility that came from the
12 firehouse with Mr. Carter?
13 A Do I remember? Yes, I do remember.
14 Q Okay. You remember the very first
15 time that you discussed that possibility,
16 correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And what led you to suspect the
19 firemen was that you saw cars in the parking lot
20 and you assumed that the firemen were having sex
21 in the cars, correct?
22 A I didn't assume that.
23 Q Mr. deVries, do you recall being
24 deposed in this case, correct? Do you remember
25 your deposition being taken?
135
1 A Yes, the 23 hours you mean?
2 Q Pardon me?
3 A The 23 hours?
4 Q You recall being deposed, correct?
5 A For 23 hours, yes.
6 Q Okay. Mr. deVries, I'm showing
7 you on page 75 of your deposition, if you
8 could --
9 MR. MULLIN: What volume are we
10 in?
11 MR. PARIS: I will -- I will get
12 it. Page 75.
13 MS. SMITH: What volume?
14 MR. PARIS: That's one.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: I learned that the
16 other day, Miss Smith. The volumes are
17 chronologically numbered. I have never seen
18 that, I have to say.
19 MS. SMITH: That is unusual; I am
20 not even used to that.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: I am not accustomed
22 to that either.
23 BY MR. PARIS:
24 Q Can you take a look at 74, line 9
25 of your --
136
1 A Seventy-four?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Okay. Now, if you take a look at
5 page 74, line 9, do you see the question you
6 were asked? When was the first time that you
7 and Mr. Carter discussed the possibility that
8 the condoms had been thrown there or placed
9 there by someone from the firehouse?
10 Do you see your answer? Can you just
11 read your answer?
12 A It was after one of the subsequent
13 events. I cannot recall. I cannot put it in
14 order, and I cannot tell you which one it was.
15 Q Okay. And do you -- do you
16 recall -- if you could take a look at page 75,
17 line 20. You were asked the question: Do you
18 recall what led you and Mr. Carter to suspect
19 that it might be the firemen?
20 And what was your answer?
21 A They were having sex in the parking lot.
22 Q And the question was: Is that
23 your complete answer?
24 And your answer was?
25 A Yes.
137
1 Q Now --
2 A At that particular time, I'm not sure
3 what time you're referring to, Mr. Paris.
4 Q Are you talking about the time of
5 your deposition, or are you talking about some
6 other time?
7 A I am talking about that time --
8 Q Okay.
9 A -- when we first discussed the
10 possibility.
11 Q Now, Mr. deVries, okay, I want to
12 draw your attention to the evening of April 24th
13 of 2004.
14 A Hang on. I'm sorry, I didn't answer that
15 question correctly or --
16 Q You want to change your answer,
17 Mr. deVries?
18 A No, I don't want to change my answer; I
19 would like to amend it.
20 Q Okay. How do you want to amend
21 your answer?
22 A In addition -- at that time, when we
23 discussed it --
24 Q Yes.
25 A -- when we first suspected the firemen --
138
1 Q Right.
2 A -- was when we witnessed them having sex
3 in the parking lot.
4 Q Okay.
5 A Okay. When did we know that it was the
6 firemen for certain?
7 Q Well, your -- your testimony, if
8 I'm not mistaken, Mr. deVries, was that you
9 heard the firemen saying something about condoms
10 the evening of April 25th, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Now, Mr. -- Mr. deVries --
13 Mr. deVries.
14 A Yes, I'm listening.
15 Q Okay. Now let's just talk about
16 the evening of April 25th, all right. You --
17 you had gone to bed -- at the time that you went
18 to bed it was after the firemen and their --
19 their dates and guests were returning to the
20 firehouse, correct?
21 A I don't know. I was already in bed
22 reading.
23 Q At the time that you were in bed
24 reading you knew that there was an event going
25 on earlier in the evening there, correct?
139
1 A I assume that I knew, yes.
2 Q Okay. And you went to sleep? You
3 went to sleep, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q All right. And you didn't hear
6 anything or wake up for any reason after you
7 fell asleep until Mr. Carter woke you, correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And when he woke you, he shook
10 your shoulder and he said, "Peter, come
11 downstairs"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And in -- while he was urgent, he
14 was calm at that time, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. Now, you were talking about
17 a sound along the side of the house. First, you
18 do not know what made the sound of -- of hitting
19 along the side of your house, correct?
20 A I beg your pardon?
21 Q In other words, you don't know
22 what was causing the sound that you heard
23 against the side of your house?
24 A No, I can only tell you what it sounded
25 like.
140
1 Q And when you described that sound,
2 you -- you described it as you thought it was a
3 man slapping the side of the house, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, your testimony was that the
6 same person who was yelling -- and I think the
7 word that was used was "homo" -- repeatedly was
8 also slapping the side of the house, correct?
9 A The word followed the slaps.
10 Q Okay. So there was a slap and
11 then you heard the word "homo," correct?
12 A As the slaps moved, the words moved.
13 Q Okay. And the slapping was the
14 only sound that you heard that indicated to you
15 that night that someone was making contact with
16 your property; isn't that true?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. Because you heard no other
19 sound of the house being stricken other than the
20 slapping, correct?
21 A Not that I was aware of.
22 Q Okay. Now, as far as -- okay.
23 Now, the only other part of your property that
24 you indicated was being touched from the parking
25 lot was the fence towards the back of the deck,
141
1 correct?
2 A When you say, "you," do you mean me or
3 Mr. Carter?
4 Q Well, you know what, let me
5 clarify that. You -- you were told by Mr.
6 Carter that somebody was in contact with the
7 fence in the back near the deck, correct?
8 Mr. Carter told you that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Now, at the same time he
11 told you that, at one point in time he was
12 outside on the deck, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And at the same time, he did not
15 tell you that he actually saw someone climbing
16 on the fence; isn't that true?
17 MR. MULLIN: Objection as to form,
18 Your Honor. Doesn't specify the time.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
20 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
21 BY MR. PARIS:
22 A That was going to be my question.
23 Q Hold on a second. Well, let's
24 talk about that evening, okay. Mr. Carter did
25 not tell you whether he saw anyone actually
142
1 climbing on the fence, did he?
2 MR. MULLIN: At what time, Your
3 Honor? Same objection.
4 MR. PARIS: I am talking about
5 that evening.
6 MR. MULLIN: Well, that's -- Your
7 Honor, that could be 12 hours. Same objection.
8 MR. PARIS: Okay.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained, unless
10 you want to rephrase it.
11 BY MR. PARIS:
12 Q Mr. deVries, when was the first
13 time that Mr. Carter told you that he actually
14 heard someone shaking the fence by the deck?
15 A Just before 1 a.m. on the 25th.
16 Q Okay. Now, you indicated that you
17 were going out onto your front porch when the
18 police arrived, correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Okay. And when you opened the
21 door and the police were standing there --
22 excuse me, I think your testimony was actually
23 when you opened the door the police were walking
24 up the walk, correct?
25 A I -- yes, but they could have also have
143
1 reached the steps, you know, and were beginning
2 to walk up the steps. I mean, you know, it
3 was --
4 Q They were approaching the steps?
5 A Yes, they were very, very close to the
6 steps.
7 Q Okay. So when you opened the
8 door, the police were approaching the steps.
9 And when the police were standing there, people
10 will note -- people were no longer shouting
11 derogatory comments at you from the parking lot;
12 isn't that true?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you assumed that as the police
15 car drove up, the people in the parking lot
16 stopped what they were doing; isn't that true?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Okay. Now, there was actually
19 very little time between the time that you
20 called the police and the time that the police
21 arrive -- arrived, correct?
22 A I don't know how much time there was
23 because I cannot -- time took on a very funny --
24 Q Okay. But when -- when you were
25 talking -- when you were describing this at your
144
1 deposition, you described the period of time
2 as -- as very little time between the time that
3 you called the police and the time that they
4 actually arrived at your house, correct?
5 A Yes, I may have said that; but still,
6 it's not -- I cannot define in quantity because
7 I really don't know. I mean, at certain points
8 it was like time stood still.
9 Q Mr. deVries, I just want to --
10 your attorney previously showed you the
11 statement that you gave to the police, and I
12 just want to show it to you again. This is D-27
13 and D-28.
14 A Okay.
15 Q Okay. The first page is D-27.
16 This is dated April 27th, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay.
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you were asked the question --
21 and this is on page one -- Peter, did you see
22 any of the individuals who called you those
23 names or who had struck your house?
24 And your answer was?
25 A No.
145
1 Q And you were asked: Can you
2 recognize anyone involved in this incident?
3 And your answer was?
4 A No.
5 Q Now, if you can go to page two of
6 the statement, okay, you were asked the
7 question: Is there anything else you want to
8 tell me?
9 Do you see that towards the bottom?
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q And your answer was?
12 A No.
13 Q And then you were asked: How have
14 I treated you tonight?
15 And your answer was?
16 A Very well. With courtesy and
17 professionalism.
18 Q And you were asked: After reading
19 your statement and finding it to contain the
20 truth, will you sign it?
21 And your answer was?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you did sign your statement,
24 correct?
25 A Yes.
146
1 Q And in fact, if you take a look at
2 page one of your statement, you -- do you
3 recognize your initials at -- towards the -- I
4 guess about a third of the way down do you
5 recognize your initials, where you actually made
6 a correction to the statement?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. Now --
9 A But there is something I did not realize
10 at the time when I signed this.
11 Q Well, I'm sure that Mr. Mullin
12 will go into that with you. Let me just
13 continue, okay. When you were giving the
14 statement, you believed that the officer was
15 taking notes, correct?
16 A I don't know if he was taking notes.
17 Q Okay.
18 A They interviewed me for a long, long
19 time. A long, long time. And then Officer or
20 Detective Reinke sat down and typed this up.
21 Q Uh-huh. Okay. Mr. deVries --
22 A So these are not my words that are being
23 used.
24 Q Mr. -- Mr. deVries, there was a
25 part of the statement on page one where there
147
1 were quotations, and -- and this was in
2 essentially the first person. In other words,
3 "Tim woke me up about 12:55 a.m. and asked me to
4 come into the kitchen." Do you see that?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You're saying that those are not
7 your exact words, correct? Is that what you
8 wanted to clarify, Mr. deVries?
9 A No, no, I meant the whole thing,
10 Mr. Paris.
11 Q Mr. deVries --
12 A I am not saying I wouldn't have used some
13 of these words myself, you know. But I'm just
14 saying it was typed up; it is not a verbatim
15 statement of what I said. It may include things
16 that I said and that I agree with. By and large
17 at the time I agreed with what was -- what was
18 in here --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- because I signed it.
21 Q Okay.
22 A But that doesn't mean that, you know,
23 this is exactly 100 percent the way it went.
24 Q Okay. When you say it's not a
25 hundred percent exactly the way it went, are you
148
1 saying it's not a hundred percent exactly the
2 way it went when you were sitting with the
3 policeman; or are you saying it's not a hundred
4 percent exactly the way it went on the night of
5 April 25th?
6 A It may not have been. It all depends on
7 your questions.
8 Q My question is: Are you saying
9 this is not exactly how it went when you were
10 talking to the police on the night of the 27th,
11 or are you saying this is not the way it went in
12 terms of the event of the 25th?
13 A No, this is how it went in terms of the
14 event.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Okay.
17 Q Now -- now, you were asked: Is
18 there anything else you want to tell me?
19 And that's on page two towards the
20 bottom of the statement. Do you see that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And your answer to that was?
23 A No.
24 Q Okay. Now, I want to direct your
25 attention to the next --
149
1 A That was at that time.
2 Q Okay. I want to direct your
3 attention to the next subject, Mr. deVries. I
4 want to talk about the weekend after the evening
5 of April 25th. And this goes into May 1st, May
6 2nd, okay. You spoke about lights shining
7 for --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- a period of time May 1st, 2nd
10 and 3rd, correct?
11 A Yeah, yeah.
12 Q Okay. Mr. deVries, weren't you on
13 a business trip away from Secaucus essentially
14 in New Orleans that weekend?
15 A I was back on Sunday afternoon.
16 Q So whatever occurred on May 1st is
17 something that people told you, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And whatever happened
20 Sunday afternoon, you say that by then you had
21 come back, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. Now, when you heard -- you
24 only heard one sound of someone slapping the
25 side of the house in those three days, correct?
150
1 In other words, that sound that you heard of
2 something slapping the side of the house
3 happened on either on the 1st, the 2nd or the
4 3rd, correct?
5 A Yes, and I can't remember which night it
6 happened.
7 Q Okay. And when the lights were
8 shining on the house, in other words, while the
9 lights were shining on the house each of those
10 three days, the police were called on each
11 occasion, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, when the lights were shining
14 on the house and the police were called, I
15 assume that they were called at the time the
16 lights were shining; or were they called
17 afterwards?
18 A Well, I was only there on Sunday night.
19 Q Okay. So were the lights shining
20 on the house Sunday night?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And the paper that was up on the
23 windows, had that been removed by then?
24 A Oh, yes, I would think so. This is a
25 week later, correct?
151
1 Q Okay. So the paper wasn't up on
2 the windows a week later, then?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q Okay. And when the lights were
5 shining on the house when you were home, did you
6 call the police that Sunday night?
7 A I don't remember.
8 Q Okay. Now, you say the lights
9 were shining in the house the next night, as
10 well, May 3rd?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And you were home at that
13 time?
14 A Which -- could you please refresh my
15 memory? Which date is Sunday? What's the date
16 for Sunday, May?
17 Q Sunday, I believe, was May 2nd.
18 A Yes, so, I'm sorry, I misspoke.
19 Q I --
20 A I was there from May -- Sunday and
21 Monday.
22 Q Okay. So Sunday night, when the
23 lights shown in the house, it's your testimony
24 the lights were shining on the house Sunday
25 night, the 2nd, correct?
152
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. And it's your testimony
3 that the police were called May 2nd while the
4 lights were shining on the house?
5 A I believe they were.
6 Q Okay. Did you call them?
7 A No, I don't know.
8 Q Do you know if Mr. Carter called
9 the police on the 2nd, while the lights were
10 shining on the house?
11 A Was either Mr. Carter or I.
12 Q And on the 3rd? Were the lights
13 shining on the house again on the 3rd?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did you call the police on the
16 night of the 3rd while the lights were shining
17 on the house?
18 A I don't remember.
19 Q Do you remember if Mr. Carter
20 shined -- excuse me, called the police while the
21 lights were shining on the house on May 3rd?
22 A No, I don't, no.
23 Q Now, when you left Secaucus to
24 move to Jersey City, you didn't tell anyone
25 employed by the Town where you were moving to;
153
1 isn't that true?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And in fact, the address that you
4 left the police when you left the Town was the
5 address for your attorney, Mr. Mullin, correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Now, in early May you became aware
8 that the investigation of this incident had been
9 taken over by the New Jersey -- New Jersey
10 Attorney General's Office; isn't that true?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And you were aware that at that
13 point Secaucus was to have no further
14 involvement in the investigation, correct?
15 MR. MULLIN: Objection, Your
16 Honor, mischaracterization of the evidence. We
17 have a document that shows that --
18 MR. PARIS: Well --
19 MR. MULLIN: -- all subsequent
20 acts after April 25 were the jurisdiction of the
21 Secaucus Police.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, we never have
23 attorneys testify, so I'm sure Mr. Mullin said
24 that just for clarification.
25 MR. MULLIN: Just for
154
1 clarification.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
3 Mr. Paris --
4 MR. PARIS: Sure.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: -- I'm going to
6 sustain the objection. If you would care to
7 rephrase.
8 MR. PARIS: Sure, thank you, Your
9 Honor.
10 BY MR. PARIS:
11 Q Mr. deVries, when you became aware
12 in early May that the Attorney General had taken
13 over the investigation, at that point in time
14 you also believe that Secaucus was to have no
15 further involvement in the investigation; isn't
16 that true?
17 MR. MULLIN: Objection to form,
18 Your Honor. I can be heard sidebar, if you
19 want.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
21 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
22 discussion is held.)
23 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, simple
24 thing. He should specify he is talking about
25 the criminal investigation. The Attorney
155
1 General had taken over the criminal
2 investigation.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Criminal
4 investigation.
5 MR. PARIS: Sure.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: That -- I thought
7 that's why, but thank you.
8 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
9 concluded.)
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, if you
11 would just --
12 MR. PARIS: Sure.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: -- rephrase your
14 question to clarify.
15 MR. PARIS: Certainly will.
16 BY MR. PARIS:
17 Q Okay. Mr. deVries, you became --
18 and let me just go back. You became aware in
19 early May that the New Jersey Attorney General's
20 Office had taken over the criminal investigation
21 of the events of April 25th, 2004, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And at that time -- you were also
24 made aware at that time that Secaucus was to
25 have no further involvement in the criminal
156
1 investigation, correct?
2 A You are talking about that --
3 Q At that particular time.
4 A -- particular -- yes, I believe we were.
5 Q Okay. And you became aware of
6 those facts at that time through direct
7 communication with the Attorney General's
8 Office; isn't that true?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And specifically Investigator
11 Troyanski told you that Secaucus was not to
12 be any -- any further -- not to be involved any
13 further in the criminal investigation of what
14 took place on April 24th and 25th of 2004; isn't
15 that true?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Now, you were not asked to
18 appear before the Grand Jury that the New Jersey
19 Attorney General convened with regard to this
20 matter, were you?
21 A No, I wasn't.
22 Q Okay. However, Mr. Carter was
23 requested to appear before the Grand Jury by the
24 New Jersey Attorney General; isn't that true?
25 A Yes.
157
1 Q And you took him to go testify or
2 to appear before the Grand Jury, correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Now, I just want to talk to you a
5 little bit about the psychological issues in
6 this matter. All right. Mr. Carter -- excuse
7 me. Mr. deVries, at the time of your deposition
8 in July of 2006 isn't it true that you did not
9 believe that you had received a diagnosis of
10 posttraumatic stress disorder?
11 A Dr. Almeleh was very angry with me after
12 my deposition.
13 MR. PARIS: Excuse me, Your Honor.
14 A What I said was incorrect.
15 MR. PARIS: Your Honor.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: The question is --
17 MR. PARIS: "At the time of your
18 deposition."
19 JUDGE CURRAN: I am going to ask
20 you to please repeat the question.
21 MR. PARIS: Sure.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: If you would please
23 repeat the answer, Mr. deVries, just to the
24 question as asked.
25 BY MR. PARIS:
158
1 Q I am going to repeat the question,
2 all right, Mr. deVries. At the time of your
3 deposition in July of 2006 -- if I could just --
4 I just want to be exact about it. At the time
5 of your deposition in July of 2006 isn't it true
6 that you did not believe that you had received a
7 diagnosis of posttraumatic stress disorder?
8 A I think I may have said that, but may
9 I -- could you please show me precisely where I
10 said it?
11 Q Could you take a look -- let me
12 find the page. You don't recall giving that
13 testimony, Mr. deVries?
14 A I said earlier there were 23 hours of
15 testimony that I was required to give over four
16 days; and I'm sorry to say that, no, I do not
17 recall every single thing I said in my
18 deposition.
19 Q All right. I'm just asking you
20 that, Mr. deVries, so that I could bring you the
21 transcript, okay.
22 MS. SMITH: What volume?
23 MR. PARIS: 825.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: What page?
25 MR. PARIS: 825.
159
1 JUDGE CURRAN: 825?
2 MR. PARIS: 825.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Line?
4 MR. PARIS: Line 3, please.
5 BY MR. PARIS:
6 A Yes, I said --
7 Q Okay.
8 A Would you like me to read line 3?
9 Q No, I'm going to go through it
10 with you, okay. All right. So at that time --
11 and that was on July 28th, 2006 -- the question
12 was: Has any physician told you that you suffer
13 from posttraumatic stress disorder?
14 And your answer was?
15 A I do not believe that -- no, I have not
16 received a diagnosis of posttraumatic stress
17 disorder. And I don't believe that I have it.
18 But that doesn't mean I might not display one or
19 two of its symptoms.
20 Q Can you continue with your answer
21 till the end?
22 A Okay. You know, there is criteria, you
23 know, there are certain criteria for it and you
24 have to meet, you know.
25 Q Okay. Now, when you went on
160
1 disability, first you were on temporary
2 disability, correct?
3 A The first -- if you -- if you mean New
4 Jersey State short-term disability, yes.
5 Q Okay. So initially it was
6 temporary short-term disability. And the reason
7 it was given for that disability application was
8 major depressive disorder, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And then you went on long-term
11 disability. And the reason given for that
12 disability was the same, major depressive
13 disorder, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And the --
16 A I think. I believe.
17 Q Okay.
18 A I'm not sure. I'd have to see it. But
19 if you -- if you can assure me that's indeed --
20 Q Okay. And do you recall on the
21 disability forms at any point in time if
22 posttraumatic stress disorder was listed as a
23 basis for disability anywhere on the forms? Do
24 you recall that?
25 A No, I don't. I filled these forms out
161
1 under the direction of Jack Almeleh, so any
2 questions as to how they were filled out, I
3 mean, I really can't answer.
4 Q Okay. Now, before April 25th,
5 2004 is it your understanding -- or was it your
6 understanding at the time that you were deposed
7 that you had never been diagnosed by any
8 physician with major depression?
9 A I'm not sure. I don't recall.
10 Q Okay. You don't recall --
11 A No.
12 Q -- denying at any point that you
13 had been diagnosed with any -- with major
14 depression prior to April 25th of 2004?
15 A Oh, prior to April?
16 Q Yes.
17 A Yeah, no, I definitely did not know that
18 I had major depression. I was never told. I
19 assumed I had depressive episodes, whatever, you
20 know, and that they were under control. I mean,
21 I can say there were like seven or eight years
22 when I was not under Dr. Almeleh's care.
23 Q That's while you were in
24 Minnesota, correct?
25 A I didn't go to Minnesota to avoid him,
162
1 no.
2 Q I'm not saying that. I just want
3 to understand. Before you went to Minnesota you
4 were being treated by Dr. Almeleh, correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. And that was in the
7 mid-1980s, correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. Mr. deVries, why did you go
10 see Dr. Almeleh the first time you went to see
11 him?
12 A It was several years or sometime after I
13 had joined AA. Initially when I joined AA I
14 felt wonderful with the support that I received
15 from the meetings and the fact that I was off of
16 alcohol, as I have been until this day. Was --
17 one might describe it as sort of a euphoric --
18 there is a euphoria.
19 Then, as a couple of years -- as the
20 reality set in, you know, I'm sober now, why
21 isn't my life -- you know, my life was fine; I
22 had nothing to complain about. But
23 nevertheless, I chose to complain. And I
24 thought maybe I should see a therapist just to
25 talk things out. And that's when I went to see
163
1 Dr. Almeleh.
2 Q Okay. So it's just basically to
3 talk things out?
4 A That's what I thought.
5 Q Okay. And you're not aware of
6 whether Dr. Almeleh diagnosed you with a major
7 depression soon after or even at the time that
8 he first began to see you, correct?
9 A He definitely did not.
10 Q Okay. You believe that Dr.
11 Almeleh's diagnosis was a mild neurocognitive
12 disorder that was related to a combination of
13 your upbringing, alcoholism and coping with the
14 fact that you were gay, correct?
15 A That is something I spouted in my
16 deposition --
17 Q Okay.
18 A -- which is incorrect. I was being asked
19 to make my own diagnoses in my deposition.
20 Q Mr. Carter -- Mr. deVries.
21 A Or I thought I was.
22 Q Mr. deVries.
23 A And this is the only point that I
24 disagree with on my deposition because it --
25 this is not -- anyways, it -- yeah, it's -- it's
164
1 not what I had. It's --
2 Q Okay.
3 A Depression is actually more severe than
4 whatever that --
5 Q Mr. deVries, what's the first
6 page -- the volume you have, what page does that
7 start with?
8 A Two and 690.
9 Q Do you have page 443 there,
10 Mr. deVries?
11 A 443?
12 Q Right.
13 A 150 -- 143, then it goes to 690.
14 Q No, then I have it here, then.
15 Let me give that to you, okay. Mr. deVries, let
16 me just show you this. Can you take a look at
17 line 8? Okay. Just take a look at line 8.
18 Page 443, line 8.
19 Mr. deVries, do you recall being asked
20 the question at your deposition on July 26th,
21 2006 at line 8, Question: At any time -- at any
22 time prior to April 25th of 2004 did you receive
23 from any physician a diagnosis of depression?
24 And your answer was? What was your
25 answer, Mr. deVries? Do you see the question?
165
1 A No.
2 Q Line 8, page 443. Okay. Let me
3 read the question again. Do you see line 8?
4 A Yes. I said, "No." I said, "No."
5 Q I'm sorry.
6 A The answer was, "No."
7 Q Okay. The answer was -- the
8 answer -- I'm sorry, just to unconfuse the
9 record, at any time prior to April 25th of 2004
10 did you receive from any physician a diagnosis
11 of depression?
12 Answer? Mr. deVries, what was the
13 answer?
14 A I'm sorry, I lost -- what line are we on?
15 Q Line 8.
16 A Yeah.
17 Q The question: At any time prior
18 to April 25th of 2004 did you receive from any
19 physician a diagnosis of depression?
20 What was your answer?
21 A No.
22 Q And the question: Did Dr. Almeleh
23 ever diagnose you with depression ever?
24 And your answer was?
25 A Yes.
166
1 Q And the question was: When was
2 the first time to your recollection that Dr.
3 Almeleh diagnosed you with depression?
4 And your answer was?
5 A Sometime after April 25th. I'm going to
6 have to ask him exactly when it was, you know.
7 Q Now, let's move on, okay.
8 A It had to do with billing codes.
9 Q You know, let's talk about after
10 the incident of -- of April 25th -- Mr. deVries.
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Okay. After the incident of
13 April 25th you sought treatment with Dr.
14 Almeleh, correct?
15 A I was seeing Dr. Almeleh before the 25th.
16 Q Okay. In fact, you saw him a few
17 days before the 25th, correct?
18 A I think so.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Yeah.
21 Q And then -- then there was the
22 incident of the 25th?
23 A Yeah.
24 Q And you didn't see Dr. Almeleh
25 again until your next regularly scheduled
167
1 appointment, correct?
2 A Which I think was some days later.
3 Q Okay. Were you seeing him that
4 frequently, like once a week; or was it a couple
5 weeks after the event that you saw Dr. Almeleh
6 for the first time after the event?
7 A It wasn't a couple of weeks. I think --
8 I think it was about eight or nine days.
9 Q Okay. So you think it was about
10 eight or nine -- you think it was about eight or
11 nine days after the event that you saw Dr.
12 Almeleh for the first time, correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. Now, at that point in time
15 Dr. Almeleh did not increase your dosage of any
16 antidepressant medication, did he?
17 A No, he didn't, no.
18 Q Okay. Then after that appointment
19 you kept your next regularly scheduled
20 appointment, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And in fact, you kept your
23 regularly scheduled appointments with Dr.
24 Almeleh from April of 2004 through March of
25 2005, correct?
168
1 A I think they were increased to once a
2 week.
3 Q Do you recall that they were
4 increased after March of 2005?
5 A At some point after.
6 Q After March of 2005?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. And then, by April of 2005,
9 within about a month after your appointments
10 were increased Dr. Almeleh and yourself began
11 the process of putting you on temporary
12 disability?
13 A Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. I'm
14 sorry, I'm getting the years wrong. You're
15 talking about 2005?
16 Q Yes.
17 A I was talking about 2004.
18 Q Okay. Well -- were your
19 appointments -- okay. Let's go back, then, if
20 you're confused, were somehow unclear.
21 You kept your regular appointment
22 before this event, correct, of April 25th?
23 A 2004.
24 Q '4, yeah, you kept your regular
25 appointment before it happened, correct?
169
1 A Yeah.
2 Q You kept your regular appointment
3 after it happened, correct?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Okay. Then you continued to keep
6 your regular appointments until approximately
7 March of 2005?
8 A No, that's not correct.
9 Q Okay. So it's your testimony that
10 your -- your appointments increased at some
11 point in time before March of 2005; is that your
12 testimony?
13 A I think so, yeah. I'm pretty sure they
14 did.
15 Q And in April of 2005 is when
16 you -- when you applied for temporary
17 disability, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay.
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Now, again, going back to your
22 deposition, at the time of your deposition isn't
23 it true that you testified that you had not
24 taken a sleep aid since 2004?
25 A Yes, I would guess I said that.
170
1 Q Okay. And didn't you testify also
2 that you did not have any specific nightmares
3 about the event?
4 A Not immediately.
5 Q Well, didn't you -- at the time of
6 your deposition, okay -- page 744, do you have
7 that in front of you?
8 A I think I was asked about my nightmares
9 during my deposition. I'm sorry, what page?
10 JUDGE CURRAN: 744.
11 Q Oh, no, I'm sorry, you know what,
12 let me -- okay.
13 A You know --
14 Q If you take a look at page 744,
15 okay, you -- and starting at page 743, all
16 right, you were asked about nightmares. And at
17 744, line 14 you were asked: What are these
18 nightmares about?
19 And your answer? And again, I'm
20 looking at 744, line 14.
21 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, I have
22 completeness objection. Can we start at 743,
23 line 23 for completeness?
24 MR. PARIS: Sure. I'm sorry, what
25 page?
171
1 MR. MULLIN: Page 743, line 23.
2 MR. PARIS: Sure.
3 BY MR. PARIS:
4 Q I will ask the question. Give the
5 answer, okay, Mr. deVries? Okay?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Okay. Question: Between the time
8 of the incident and the time Mr. Carter
9 testified before the Grand Jury in August 2004
10 how often were you waking up screaming?
11 And your answer was?
12 A The frequency of my waking up screaming
13 from nightmares has been pretty much the same
14 throughout. It appears to occur in little
15 clusters, where it's not like it happens every
16 night. I can even go for, perhaps, as long as,
17 you know, several weeks with it not happening;
18 and then, all of a sudden, I'll have, not in a
19 series of single nights in a row, but suddenly
20 there is, you know, every two, three, sometimes
21 in sequential nights I will have a bought of
22 nightmares that I scream myself awake from or I
23 am woken by Mr. Carter because I -- whatever I
24 am saying or yelling about, you know, because he
25 understands that I'm in distress.
172
1 Q And the question: What are these
2 nightmares about?
3 And your answer?
4 A They vary. None of them are specifically
5 about the event.
6 Q Okay. And with regard -- with
7 regard to your job, okay, between April 25th of
8 2004 and April of 2005, you were able to
9 concentrate on reading materials at work,
10 weren't you?
11 A No, I wasn't.
12 Q Well, do you recall that your
13 concentration was -- that it was interesting
14 that your concentration was okay at work but you
15 were not able to pick up a book at home? Do you
16 recall that?
17 A I -- I kept a diary that summer, which
18 you should have copies of; and I'm quite certain
19 that I recorded in this -- in this diary that I
20 was having trouble focusing and concentrating at
21 work.
22 Q Okay. But Mr. deVries, that
23 went -- that went on well after. In other
24 words, initially after this event you were able
25 to continue at work, you were able to
173
1 concentrate at work. It was at home that you
2 did not feel that you could read for pleasure,
3 correct?
4 A I had to concentrate at work --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- period.
7 Q And you did that for a period of
8 time, didn't you?
9 A Until I couldn't do it anymore.
10 Q Now --
11 A I mean, there is a difference between
12 having my normal level of concentration and I
13 complete a task in five minutes and having, you
14 know, my concentration going on, off and having
15 to take longer about completing the task but
16 still completing it. I would think that that
17 qualifies as, you know, having problems with
18 concentration.
19 Q Mr. deVries. Mr. deVries.
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Okay. Did you notice that there
22 was a difference, that you were initially able
23 to do your work but you didn't read at home but
24 you were able to do your reading at work for a
25 period of time after this event?
174
1 A Yes, I read it.
2 Q Okay. Now, Mr. deVries, you
3 indicated before the -- the evening of the 25th
4 that you were going to take a job at Thomson's,
5 correct?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you were going to leave Dowden
8 and you were ready to take a job at Thomson's,
9 correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. Where was Thomson's office
12 located in Secaucus?
13 A I forget the name of the plaza, but it is
14 right near the -- if you're familiar, you know
15 the Wal-Mart in Secaucus? Right beside it.
16 Q Is it one --
17 A One of these older office buildings.
18 Q It's an older office building?
19 A Yeah, yeah.
20 Q But is it a large office building?
21 A Large-ish.
22 Q Okay. And it's on the -- and is
23 it on the opposite side of Route 3 from where
24 you lived?
25 A The one by Walgreens, no, it's on the
175
1 same side.
2 Q Same side, okay. An office
3 building by the Walgreens, correct? That's
4 where Thomson was located?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, did you ever talk to Dr.
9 Almeleh about the fact that you wanted -- that
10 you at times thought about driving into an
11 overpass?
12 A Probably.
13 Q Okay. Do you recall having spoken
14 to him about that?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Okay. Do you recall soon after
17 the night of April 25th that you posed for a
18 picture for the newspapers looking out the
19 window of your kitchen, looking towards the
20 parking lot of the firehouse?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q I have no further questions, thank
23 you. Thank you, Mr. deVries.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
25 MR. MULLIN: Just a few questions.
176
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
2 Q When you would go to therapy with
3 Dr. Almeleh, Peter -- Peter.
4 A Yes.
5 Q When you would go to therapy with
6 Dr. Almeleh, would Dr. Almeleh take notes?
7 A Yes, he would take notes.
8 Q And did he show you those notes as
9 he was taking them?
10 A Of course not. They were his notes, not
11 mine.
12 Q Did he say, "Look, here is my" --
13 "here is the diagnosis I wrote in my notes"?
14 Did he do that during these sessions?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. At the time of your
17 depositions, your 23 hours of depositions in
18 2006, had you read through Dr. Almeleh's notes?
19 A I had tried, okay. Dr. Almeleh wrote his
20 notes. If we could even show a copy or --
21 anyways, he folded the pages in half and had
22 real teeny, tiny, teensy-weensy script that was
23 almost like hieroglyphics, like an ant. And I
24 could get general gist of them, but I couldn't
25 get all the details, okay. I don't think
177
1 anyone -- I don't know, maybe someone has been
2 able to get every single detail right; but it
3 was -- they are very difficult to read.
4 Q Okay. Aside from what you thought
5 or believed that you were diagnosed with
6 posttraumatic stress disorder by Dr. Bursztajn,
7 the expert that came here and testified --
8 A Yes, he was mad at me about that too.
9 Q Did it later turn out Dr. Almeleh
10 had, in fact, diagnosed you with posttraumatic
11 stress disorder, as well as depression? Did you
12 later learn that?
13 A Yes, yes, I never knew that I had -- if
14 it's written anywhere that I had major
15 depression before April 25th 2004, it's news to
16 me.
17 Q Okay.
18 A No one told me.
19 Q Okay.
20 A And the symptoms do not emerge full-blown
21 overnight.
22 Q You were asked a couple questions
23 about what you observed and heard on the front
24 porch when police officers were there. Was
25 there a moment or time when Tim Carter was out
178
1 on the front porch and you were in the house?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Getting back to your statement to
4 the -- that the police typed up and wrote, D-28,
5 Mr. Paris read this question to you that's on
6 D-28. "Is there anything else you want to tell
7 me?" And you said, "No." By the time you
8 answered that, "No," how long had you been
9 talking to these two police officers and this
10 detective?
11 A I would estimate, oh, one -- one and
12 three quarters to two or more.
13 Q Two or more what? Minutes?
14 A Hours.
15 Q You had spoken to them for two
16 hours at that point, and you didn't have
17 anything further to tell them; is that right?
18 A Right.
19 Q What time did you indicate you
20 were signing this?
21 A Quarter to 11 at night.
22 Q A.m. or p.m.?
23 A P.m., at night.
24 Q Is there -- have you seen any
25 document that they prepared, these -- this
179
1 Detective DeGennaro, anyone else, that records
2 in detail everything you told them during those
3 two hours? Did the police make a detailed
4 verbatim record of what you told them during
5 those two hours that you have seen?
6 A No, sir.
7 MR. MULLIN: I have no further
8 questions.
9 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I just
10 have a couple follow-up, then, unfortunately, I
11 have about three omitted questions from cross,
12 if I may.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Any objection?
14 MR. MULLIN: No objection, Your
15 Honor.
16 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
17 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. PARIS:
18 Q Mr. deVries, if Dr. Pumill's
19 office notes indicate that you were diagnosed
20 with depression, is that something that you
21 would have told Dr. Pumill before the -- before
22 April 25th?
23 MR. MULLIN: Object to form, Your
24 Honor.
25 Q Let me ask the question this way,
180
1 if it's a little bit clearer.
2 Dr. -- Mr. deVries, do you recall
3 telling Dr. Pumill that you had been diagnosed
4 with depression before April 25th of 2004?
5 A I think so.
6 Q You think you had told Dr. Pumill
7 that; is that correct?
8 A Yes, I think so.
9 Q Okay. Now, you were on the porch
10 with the officers, Officer Ulrich, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And you were also on the
13 porch with Lieutenant Amodeo, who was sergeant
14 at the time, correct?
15 A Yes, yes.
16 Q And it was only after Sergeant
17 Amodeo came that you then went into the house,
18 correct?
19 A That was sometime after Sergeant Amodeo
20 came. I did spend some time out on the porch
21 with Sergeant Amodeo.
22 Q Okay. So my point is Officer
23 Ulrich was on the porch, then Sergeant Amodeo
24 came, he was on the porch; and during that
25 period of time -- for that period of time you
181
1 were on the porch with Mr. Carter, correct?
2 A I am not sure. And there is largely a
3 reason from the size of the porch and the fact
4 that three people, if not four, at various times
5 were trying to find a spot on the porch.
6 Q Okay.
7 A So there is nothing -- and Mr. Carter and
8 I -- this story did not emerge from us smoothly.
9 I mean, I was talking. Tim would interrupt, and
10 he would add. And you know, it's one, one, one.
11 You know, the police would ask questions. The
12 whole thing came out very piecemeal. So it's
13 very well possible and probably happened that
14 Tim wanted to have -- you know, to have his bit
15 and then I was back into the living room.
16 Q Mr. deVries, who was David
17 D'Amico?
18 A He is -- I believe he is a police
19 officer, okay. He was someone --
20 Q Was he with the Attorney General's
21 Office?
22 A Not that I know of.
23 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, can we
24 have a sidebar, please?
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely.
182
1 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
2 discussion is held.)
3 MR. MULLIN: I assume that
4 Mr. Paris had a few questions he overlooked
5 related to the subject matter that I have been
6 dealing with. I don't know who David D'Amico
7 is. I would like a proffer on this, Your Honor.
8 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, once
9 again, this is a document that was marked P00264
10 in discovery. It is document P-75 of the
11 exhibits that had been proffered by the
12 plaintiffs. So I am now asking who is Mr.
13 D'Amico because this is one of the documents
14 that was proffered by the plaintiffs.
15 MR. MULLIN: I want to know what
16 the subject matter of this is and proffer on
17 that.
18 MR. PARIS: Well, P-75.
19 MS. SMITH: It's a secret?
20 MR. MULLIN: Is it a secret, or
21 would you like to share it with me?
22 MR. PARIS: No, I would be happy
23 to share it with you. Wait a minute. I am
24 going to give you that document.
25 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
183
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Is he related to
2 Charles D'Amico?
3 MR. BEVERE: I have no idea. You
4 could ask Charlie. He keeps popping his head
5 in.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Do you know if --
7 MR. MULLIN: I know Charlie
8 D'Amico, and I don't know if this person --
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Only because Mr.
10 D'Amico keeps coming in and out of the
11 courtroom. I'm sorry, what are the exhibit
12 numbers again? P-75?
13 MR. PARIS: It's P-75.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Just I thought you
15 gave two numbers.
16 MR. PARIS: Well, the number I
17 gave was the number they had marked this in
18 discovery.
19 MR. MULLIN: This looks like
20 something treading dangerously close to the
21 Grand Jury. I think Your Honor should look at
22 it.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: May I?
24 MR. PARIS: Sure.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Excuse me, Tracey.
184
1 What is the proffer on the question?
2 MR. PARIS: Number one, that by
3 June 18th they were making inquiries -- I
4 believe this is somebody from the Attorney
5 General's Office -- to find out what was going
6 on because they felt the progress wasn't being
7 made. And at that point in time the impression
8 was that the harassment had stopped.
9 MS. SMITH: It's hearsay.
10 MR. MULLIN: I see there is a
11 sentence not by my client but by David D'Amico
12 in this hearsay document saying that my client
13 is not saying that.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Right. With all
15 due respect --
16 MR. MULLIN: I don't know -- thank
17 you, Your Honor. I'm sorry to interrupt.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry, I
19 read -- I will note for the record that
20 basically appears to be an e-mail sent from his
21 office by Mr. deVries to Mr. D'Amico and reply
22 from Mr. D'Amico. I would think a fair reading
23 of the two e-mails does not indicate in Mr.
24 deVries' e-mail that the problems have stopped.
25 That may have been Mr. D'Amico's impression. I
185
1 don't think Mr. D'Amico is on the witness list
2 to come in.
3 MR. PARIS: No, he is not. I only
4 asked him --
5 JUDGE CURRAN: You can't ask him
6 that question.
7 MR. PARIS: Okay. That's fine,
8 Your Honor. I will withdraw it.
9 MR. MULLIN: So I understand, we
10 are not going to go into this document?
11 MR. PARIS: We are done with this
12 document.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
14 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
15 concluded.)
16 BY MR. PARIS:
17 Q Mr. deVries, I'm showing you
18 document which is marked P-73 for Identification
19 in this matter.
20 MR. MULLIN: I have to get it,
21 hang on.
22 Q This is an e-mail -- Mr. deVries,
23 this is an e-mail that you wrote, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And it's dated June --
186
1 A Yes.
2 Q -- the 3rd?
3 A Yes.
4 Q About 1:56 in the afternoon?
5 A Uh-huh.
6 Q You sent this to Eugene Troyanski.
7 And who is Mr. Troyanski?
8 A He was an investigator for the Bias Crime
9 Unit, which was attached to the Office of the
10 Attorney General in Trenton.
11 Q Okay. You also sent this to Brian
12 Christensen. Who is Mr. Christensen?
13 A He was Mr. Troyanski's partner.
14 Q All right. You also copied this
15 to Mr. Carter, correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, you wrote in this e-mail --
18 and please correct me, if I'm wrong -- Friday,
19 May 28th. "All of a sudden the firehouse
20 appears to be virtually shut down. Almost no
21 cars or people to be seen in the parking lot.
22 At night the lights in the firehouse are on, and
23 there may be a single car in the parking lot.
24 Also, sudden heavy police presence. Police cars
25 parked in the firehouse lot for 30 minutes at a
187
1 time, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, June 1, 2,
2 3. Just as suddenly, the police disappear. Tim
3 hasn't seen a policeman around the house for a
4 few days now. Why the abrupt shifts?"
5 And then this has your name with Dowden
6 Health Media, correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Okay. Does this reflect something
9 that you experienced or something you were told?
10 A I experienced it during the evening.
11 Q Okay. So this -- so this is
12 partially something you've experienced and
13 something you were told?
14 A And something that Timothy Carter
15 experienced, yes.
16 Q Okay. And in June were you
17 reporting to the Attorney General's
18 investigators what was going on in Secaucus with
19 regard to the firehouse and with regard to the
20 police?
21 A Yes, at that stage I think we were
22 reporting to everybody.
23 Q Okay. Now, you didn't send this
24 e-mail to anyone within Secaucus, correct?
25 A I don't know. I don't recall.
188
1 Q Okay. And did you continue to
2 make inquiries with the Attorney General
3 thereafter, after June to find out what the
4 status was with their investigation and with the
5 Grand Jury?
6 A When we were in Trenton and we were
7 interviewed by Mr. Troyanski and
8 Mr. Christensen, they -- as the interview wound
9 up, they repeatedly --
10 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, this is
11 calling for hearsay. My question was --
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Sustained.
13 BY MR. PARIS:
14 Q Do you continue to make --
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Please repeat.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: That's okay.
18 Repeat the question.
19 BY MR. PARIS:
20 Q Mr. deVries, here is my question.
21 Did you continue to make inquiries with the
22 Attorney General thereafter, after June, to find
23 out what the status was with their investigation
24 and with the Grand Jury?
25 MR. MULLIN: Objection. His
189
1 question calls for hearsay.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, his question
3 is a yes or no question. I will allow that
4 question.
5 MR. PARIS: I am asking if he
6 followed up.
7 BY MR. PARIS:
8 Q Did you follow up with the
9 Attorney General regarding their investigation
10 and the Grand Jury?
11 A What do you mean by "follow up," sir? I
12 mean, did I -- I'm -- I'm a bit puzzled. Did I
13 ask what the status was, or did I provide them
14 with information?
15 Q Well, let's break it down, then.
16 Did you ask them for the status of what they
17 were doing and what was going on or what the
18 status was with regard to the investigation and
19 with regard to the Grand Jury?
20 A No, not really.
21 Q Okay. So you didn't follow up
22 with regard to the investigation after June?
23 A Speaking for myself, no. I think at a
24 certain point I -- I don't know, I may have
25 asked once or twice; but it was not a passion.
190
1 I didn't -- yeah.
2 Q You did follow up with the
3 Attorney General's Office?
4 A I certainly provided them with any new
5 information.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Yeah.
8 Q That was going to be the next
9 half.
10 A Yeah.
11 Q So you were providing the Attorney
12 General's Office with any new information, and
13 you were -- were you asking them -- weren't you
14 asking them what was going on with their
15 investigation and what was going on with the
16 Grand Jury?
17 A Probably.
18 Q Okay.
19 A I mean, why wouldn't I? But we were
20 never told who to report to.
21 Q I have no further questions.
22 Thank you.
23 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MULLIN:
24 Q Did the Attorney General ever tell
25 you that under the law what happens before a
191
1 Grand Jury is a secret? Anyone ever tell you
2 that it has to be kept secret?
3 A Oh, yeah, of course, they couldn't --
4 yeah.
5 Q Were there a lot of police reports
6 where you or Tim called up the Secaucus Police
7 and complained about shining headlights, people
8 calling you faggot? Are there a lot of police
9 reports in the file to that effect that you have
10 seen?
11 A Yes, yes, yes.
12 Q No further questions.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Anything else,
14 Mr. Paris?
15 MR. PARIS: If I can just have one
16 moment.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely.
18 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, can we
19 perhaps get the afternoon break now?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Surely.
21 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
23 Gentlemen, we will --
24 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, can I be
25 heard at sidebar on that?
192
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
2 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
3 discussion is held.)
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin.
5 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, generally
6 I'm very cordial and courteous to counsel when
7 they want this kind of break; but this is a
8 traumatized plaintiff and we're on, I think,
9 re-re-recross at this point. I would like my
10 client to know he is off the stand, Your Honor.
11 I think it's a tremendous strain on him. I
12 think at most it can only be one or two
13 questions. We're on some iteration of cross. I
14 don't know if it's re-recross or re-re-recross,
15 but I think time has come for counsel to finish
16 and -- and it's an unusual circumstance when you
17 have traumatized plaintiffs.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris.
19 MR. PARIS: I'll -- if I can have,
20 what, three minutes? Four minutes? I just want
21 a couple minutes to confer with co-counsel.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: In fairness, I
23 usually allow that. What I will do is just ask
24 the jury to go into the jury room for about five
25 minutes; and your client can either stay where
193
1 he is or step down, wherever he is more
2 comfortable.
3 MR. MULLIN: Thank you.
4 MR. PARIS: Thank you.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
6 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
7 concluded.)
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
9 Gentlemen, if you just want to go into the jury
10 room for about five minutes, so we can be out
11 here. Thank you.
12 Don't get involved in any big
13 show on that -- what do you call those things --
14 large screen TVs. Don't get involved.
15 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Sir, you may step
17 down or whatever you are more comfortable.
18 THE WITNESS: May I go to the
19 washroom?
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
21 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
22 taken.)
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Shall we bring the
24 jury out?
25 MR. MULLIN: I guess so.
194
1 JUDGE CURRAN: All right.
2 COURT CLERK: On the record.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
4 MS. HAWKS: Jurors are
5 approaching.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
7 (Whereupon, the jury is brought
8 into the courtroom.)
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Please
10 be seated.
11 Again, sir, you are still under
12 oath. I know you know that --
13 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: -- but I'm required
15 to remind you.
16 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, I have no
17 further questions, thank you.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
19 MR. PARIS: I appreciate your
20 time. Thanks.
21 MR. MULLIN: No further questions.
22 JUDGE CURRAN: All right. Ladies
23 and Gentlemen, is there anyone -- thank you.
24 There is one question from one of the jurors.
25 Does any other juror have a question? There are
195
1 cards and pencils at the side. Thank you. If I
2 might see counsel at sidebar.
3 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
4 discussion is held.)
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay. The question
6 is: Was the police questioning being taped --
7 tape recorded, video recorded or was it being
8 taped as the questions were being asked; or was
9 it a handwritten statement made by the witness
10 and then typed by the officer?
11 MR. MULLIN: No objection.
12 MR. PARIS: No objection.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
14 MR. MULLIN: We should let the
15 witness know we're referring to --
16 MR. BEVERE: Is that the one
17 question? It's only one question?
18 JUDGE CURRAN: It's sort of two
19 questions, but that's it.
20 MR. MULLIN: No objection.
21 MS. SMITH: I'm sorry, what are we
22 on Court exhibit?
23 JUDGE CURRAN: Miss Castelli,
24 which Court exhibit is this question card?
25 Number which?
196
1 COURT CLERK: Which number is it?
2 JUDGE CURRAN: The Court question
3 number.
4 COURT CLERK: It's number five.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Five.
6 MR. BEVERE: Judge, Mr. Mullin is
7 going to do some dep reads of Patricia Hjelm
8 coming up next. Now, there were some portions
9 of the transcript that I wanted to have read, as
10 well. I gave them to Mr. Mullin. We need to
11 just work out -- my preference would be to have
12 him read his portions and then me right after
13 that read mine; but I'll --
14 MR. MULLIN: Here is what I want.
15 Here -- I would like to read my portions and
16 then have them read theirs in their case because
17 a lot of what they wanted was not a completeness
18 passage but a new topic that they believe
19 assists their defense.
20 There was one completeness
21 passage, which seemed, in fairness, I should
22 read. And I think you and I took some notes on
23 that.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Normally the
25 completeness ones would be read at that time and
197
1 then you would read in your case what you wanted
2 to read. Do you two have any questions on the
3 completeness one as to which it is?
4 MR. BEVERE: No, we have no
5 question on the completeness. And we went over
6 those, as well. Normally I would have the
7 opportunity to cross-examine the witness, if she
8 was here, so that's why I was asking the Court
9 for permission to read my portions after
10 Mr. Mullin read his, because, really, in all
11 fairness, if she was here -- it's not like it's
12 on a different topic all together -- normally I
13 would have an opportunity to cross-examine her,
14 ask some questions.
15 MR. PARIS: If it flows from the
16 same topic, why wouldn't he be able to just read
17 it?
18 JUDGE CURRAN: I don't know if it
19 flows from the same topic. I think Mr. Mullin
20 said it didn't.
21 MR. MULLIN: I thought it truly
22 didn't. I thought that it -- I mean, Dan, I
23 thought it was a whole passage that -- I mean,
24 it was a fair topic for defense; but I just
25 didn't think it was completeness.
198
1 MR. PARIS: It was on a question
2 of completeness, would that have been a topic of
3 cross-examination.
4 MR. MULLIN: But that is not the
5 standard. The standard for reading a dep is
6 completeness only.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Completeness,
8 right.
9 MR. MULLIN: This is a neutral
10 witness. She is not aligned with me, and she is
11 not aligned with them. This is -- she is
12 medially unavailable.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: This is the
14 landlady?
15 MR. MULLIN: This is the landlady.
16 MR. BEVERE: This is Patricia
17 Hjelm.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah.
19 MR. BEVERE: Judge.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: What I will do to
21 be -- try to be overly fair to both sides, Mr.
22 Bevere, we will do the completeness one now.
23 And then, in regard to the new topics, if -- if
24 you do it diplomatically, so there is no
25 objection, if you want to refresh the jury's
199
1 memory in introducing the portions that you are
2 going to read, if that's appropriate. I haven't
3 seen the readings.
4 MR. BEVERE: Refresh?
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Well, for instance,
6 say, "You heard readings during the plaintiffs
7 case in regard to the issue of."
8 MR. BEVERE: Oh, we will read it
9 in my case?
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah.
11 MR. BEVERE: All right, Judge. I
12 don't see a problem with that.
13 MR. MULLIN: I suppose, Your
14 Honor, we should put on the record that this
15 is -- the Court has found that Miss Hjelm is
16 medically unavailable witness and we are reading
17 the unavailable --
18 JUDGE CURRAN: I normally would do
19 that, unless there is an objection.
20 MR. BEVERE: No objection.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: And when -- I'm not
22 in any way trying to rush you, but when you
23 are -- when the readings are completed, then the
24 jury can go home for the day?
25 MR. MULLIN: Sure.
200
1 JUDGE CURRAN: You want them back
2 at 9 tomorrow? Okay. Thank you.
3 MR. MULLIN: I think -- could we
4 revisit the 9:00 start tomorrow? I know they
5 are bringing in a bunch of people for me.
6 MS. SMITH: What about Goldwaser?
7 MR. BEVERE: He is not going to
8 be available now, Judge. This is another issue
9 I wanted to discuss with the Court. He was
10 available Thursday; but the way this is going,
11 it's not going to happen on Thursday.
12 MR. PARIS: Are you going to
13 be done with your case by Thursday?
14 MS. SMITH: We would certainly
15 interrupt.
16 MR. PARIS: We are not going to
17 put Goldwaser on during your case.
18 MR. BEVERE: Here is my problem,
19 Judge. He is not available until June the 5th
20 because he is away Thursday.
21 MR. PARIS: We have to figure out
22 what the schedule is.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: I don't know if you
24 can sing and dance because I can't.
25 MS. SMITH: We're happy to
201
1 interrupt for Dr. Goldwaser on Thursday when he
2 was scheduled.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
4 MR. BEVERE: We'll discuss that
5 after. I have to call him.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
7 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
8 concluded.)
9 JUDGE CURRAN: First I am going to
10 read the question.
11 Sorry, Tracey.
12 Sir, it's rather a long question,
13 so I will read the whole thing to you, even
14 though it's written as more than one question.
15 Was the police questioning being tape recorded,
16 video recorded or was it being typed as the
17 questions were being asked; or was it a
18 handwritten statement made by you and then typed
19 by the officer?
20 Do you understand? You want me
21 to repeat it?
22 THE WITNESS: No, I think I
23 understand, ma'am.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: There was no
202
1 recording of any type that I saw or that I was
2 told about, none, video, tape recorder,
3 anything. I thought they weren't taking notes,
4 but if you want -- you know, maybe. I'm not --
5 you know, I did not think they were taking
6 notes; but I don't know.
7 Basically what happened was they
8 asked me first to go through the story. We went
9 through the story from beginning to end. And
10 they asked me many, many, many questions. Okay.
11 So that took the bulk of the time that I spent
12 with these two officers.
13 After that Sergeant Reinke sat
14 down to the typewriter, and he started to type
15 this. And I think it was a computer. And he
16 would, you know, type away and sort of verbalize
17 it as he went along. And I would nod or
18 something, you know, that he was in the --
19 headed in the right direction or whatever. He
20 might ask me a question or whatever.
21 But he basically typed up the
22 next part, asked me a few questions as he went
23 along, let me know what was going on. It was
24 very roughshod type of affair. It was not word
25 for word for word that he was asking for my
203
1 approval. It was just in general here and
2 there.
3 And then he printed the thing
4 out; and he said, "Okay. Here it is. Read it
5 over. And if you have no problems with it, sign
6 it." And that's that.
7 At the time I thought this was
8 the way things were done. So it sounded pretty
9 good to me, and I signed it.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin?
11 MR. MULLIN: No further questions,
12 Your Honor.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris?
14 MR. PARIS: No further questions,
15 thank you.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Thank
17 you very much.
18 Thank you. Sir, you may step
19 down.
20 Ladies and Gentlemen, the next
21 plaintiffs' witness has been found by the Court
22 to be medically unavailable. That means, then,
23 that the witness who was deposed, you know, did
24 have questions and answers asked and answered
25 under oath, certain portions the plaintiff has
204
1 requested to read to the Court because the
2 witness is medically unavailable. That is
3 appropriate.
4 The defense then may also decide
5 if there are portions that they want to read in
6 regard to that testimony.
7 All right. Mr. Mullin.
8 MR. MULLIN: Yes, Your Honor, I am
9 just going to take about ten seconds and make
10 the adjustments that we talked about.
11 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure, no problem.
12 Ladies and Gentlemen, there is
13 nothing mysterious about what the adjustments
14 are. That's part of what we were discussing at
15 sidebar. You heard the attorneys say when we're
16 talking about depositions, you know, "I
17 think" -- on a deposition the page number is
18 numbered, and then each line is numbered. And
19 you have heard the attorneys say, "I think you
20 should go back two lines" or "move ahead to read
21 the rest of the lines in that answer for
22 completeness." And that's what the request of
23 the defense was, and that's what Mr. Mullin is
24 doing now.
25 MS. SMITH: I'm Patricia Hjelm.
205
1 JUDGE CURRAN: The witness is
2 portraying the witness. There are no Oscars for
3 this type of proceeding, but maybe there will be
4 some day.
5 Mr. Mullin.
6 MR. MULLIN: Thank you, Your
7 Honor. I will call you, "Mrs. Hjelm,"
8 Mrs. Patricia Hjelm.
9 Q Question: Just for background,
10 the incident in this case took place during the
11 early morning hours of April 25, 2004. So I
12 will be referring to that date throughout the
13 deposition.
14 A Okay.
15 Q You put on the record earlier that
16 you live at 984 Schopmann Drive?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And where is 984 Schopmann Drive
19 located in relation to 988 Schopmann?
20 A Right next door.
21 Q Can you give me a sense of the
22 distance between the two houses?
23 A 15 feet, 10 feet.
24 Q So there -- okay. So they're
25 close together?
206
1 A Yes.
2 Q And who owns the property located
3 at 988 Schopmann?
4 A 984 Schopmann?
5 Q 984 Schopmann.
6 A I do.
7 Q And who owns the property located
8 at 988 Schopmann?
9 A Patrick Hjelm, my son.
10 Q Can you give me the distance
11 between your house and the firehouse, Mrs.
12 Hjelm, and the firehouse parking lot?
13 A It's over 20 feet. I mean, it's my
14 house, a separation and then it's Patrick's
15 house and then there is the driveway.
16 Q Okay.
17 A It could be 25, 30 feet, I don't know.
18 Q Okay. There is only the one house
19 in between your house and --
20 A And the parking lot, yes. And Paterson
21 Plank Road.
22 Q Does the road fall between your
23 house and the parking lot?
24 A What do you mean? What road?
25 Q Is there any road that separates
207
1 your house from the firehouse parking lot?
2 A No.
3 MR. MULLIN: Page 12.
4 Q I show you what's been marked as
5 Patricia Hjelm-1. It's two-page document.
6 Please read this document. Did you read the
7 second page?
8 A Oh, no, I thought it was just one. Okay.
9 Q Have you had -- have you had the
10 opportunity to review what's been marked
11 Patricia Hjelm-1 for Identification?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Have you ever seen this document
14 before?
15 A No -- well, I guess maybe when I went to
16 the police station they may have shown it to me.
17 I don't know.
18 Q Is this document a statement that
19 you gave the police?
20 A I remember going to the police station.
21 This was two years ago.
22 Q It is two years ago. Did you give
23 a statement to the police?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you know whether they typed it
208
1 up?
2 A What do you mean?
3 Q When you went and gave the
4 statement to the police, was there somebody
5 taking notes?
6 A Yes, there was a policeman taking notes,
7 yes.
8 Q And while you were there did they
9 actually type up a statement?
10 A They may have. I don't remember. I just
11 know that I did go and apparently must have
12 signed this.
13 Q You did sign this statement?
14 A That's my signature. I don't remember
15 them doing it. You're asking me do I remember
16 them typing it up in front of me?
17 Q That's okay, if you don't. What
18 I'm asking is did they take a statement from
19 you?
20 A Yes, they did.
21 Q And did you sign it?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And is this the statement that
24 they took on that date?
25 A Yes.
209
1 Q Does it accurately reflect what
2 you told the police at that time?
3 A From what I remember, yes.
4 Q Okay. One of the things it says
5 in this statement is that you called the police?
6 A When I heard yelling.
7 Q You called the police on
8 April 25th, 2004; is that accurate?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. MULLIN: Page 16.
11 Q You called the police on
12 April 26th, 2004, correct?
13 A That night, yes.
14 Q Did you call 911?
15 A I must have. I don't remember.
16 Q Okay. Did you speak to a police
17 officer that evening?
18 A Whoever answered the phone. It could
19 have been a clerk. It could have been a police
20 officer.
21 Q Okay. When the police came to the
22 firehouse, did they come to your house and speak
23 to you?
24 A No.
25 Q Other than when you contacted the
210
1 Secaucus Police on the telephone, did you speak
2 with a Secaucus police officer during the early
3 morning hours of April 25th, 2004?
4 A No.
5 Q No one came to your house?
6 A No, I just saw the police car on the
7 corner; and I knew that they had come.
8 Q Okay. I asked you already whether
9 this was an accurate statement. Did you say
10 yes?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Your statement indicates that you
13 heard someone yelling. And I don't want to
14 be offensive; but one of the things they said
15 was "fucking homo." And the other thing you
16 said was "CS" in your statement because you
17 didn't want to use the term. Is that term
18 "cock-sucker"?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you heard that term being
21 yelled that evening?
22 A I must have. I don't remember now; but
23 if he wrote it down here, I must have heard it.
24 Q Okay. Because you talked to the
25 police, it was shortly after the incident took
211
1 place; is that right?
2 A Maybe a week later.
3 Q The statement indicates it was
4 given on April 28, 2004?
5 A And what's the date it happened?
6 Q April 25, 2004.
7 A Okay. Was that a weekend?
8 Q I just want to make sure it's
9 clear for the record. It says on the top of the
10 statement this is with regards to an incident
11 that happened on 4/25/04.
12 A Okay.
13 Q Do you see that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And then it indicates that you
16 signed it on 4/28/04?
17 A Why I'm asking is it seems like it was a
18 week later that I had gone down, but whatever.
19 Q Do you have any reason to believe
20 that these dates are inaccurate?
21 A No.
22 Q In your statement to the police
23 you indicate -- and I'll quote -- "I was afraid
24 he would do something, so I called the police."
25 You're referring to the person who was yelling;
212
1 is that accurate?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What were you afraid he would do?
4 A Well, when you hear anyone raising their
5 voice, you think of a fight. You think of
6 someone getting hurt. I heard arguments on the
7 street, and I just called. I didn't know what
8 it was.
9 Q So you were concerned that there
10 could be violence?
11 A There could have been. There could be an
12 argument, yes.
13 Q And this same answer within the
14 statement that you gave indicates that at some
15 point this individual switched from saying "we"
16 to "I"; is that accurate, if you read those few
17 lines I was just referring to?
18 A I don't know what that means.
19 MR. MULLIN: Okay. Page 20.
20 A Maybe he raised his voice and I knew it
21 was going to be a fight or something and that's
22 why I called. I don't know.
23 Q Okay. What I'm referring to more
24 specifically is in your statement it indicates,
25 quote, He told him that we don't want him in
213
1 this neighborhood. And this person became more
2 agitated and began to say, "I'll" -- and at the
3 time I didn't wait for him to finish because I
4 was afraid he would do something. So I called
5 the police. I'm just wondering why "I'll" is
6 emphasized. Do you know?
7 A No.
8 MR. MULLIN: Okay. Line 24.
9 Q Okay. And while you were taking
10 your statement they asked you whether you could
11 recognize the voice if you heard it again. Do
12 you see that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q But no one asked you that evening
15 whether you could recognize the voice if you
16 heard it again?
17 A I didn't speak to anyone that evening.
18 MR. MULLIN: Page 21, line 18.
19 Q When you called the police early
20 that morning, what did you tell them?
21 A When you say, "early that morning,"
22 you're talking about 12:00, right?
23 Q I believe that this incident
24 occurred after midnight on April 24th, 2004,
25 making it in the early morning hours of
214
1 April 25th, 2004.
2 A Okay.
3 Q And your statement actually
4 indicates that you were awoken up around 12:30;
5 is that right?
6 A Around that time, I guess, yes.
7 MR. MULLIN: Page 23.
8 Q When did you first meet Mr. Carter
9 and Mr. deVries; do you remember?
10 A I guess when they rented the house.
11 MR. MULLIN: Line 21.
12 Q Okay. Do you remember when you
13 came to find out that they were gay?
14 A Peter told my son right then and there.
15 And I think the real estate agent did too. He
16 asked did he have any objection to renting it to
17 them, and my son said no.
18 Q That was during that initial
19 meeting?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And did you ever mention to anyone
22 that Mr. Carter and Mr. deVries were gay?
23 A No, there was no reason to.
24 Q On the evening of April 24th, 2004
25 was anyone else at your house that night?
215
1 A No.
2 Q So your daughter was not home?
3 A She might have been sleeping, but I was
4 the only one that heard the noise because my
5 bedroom was in the back.
6 Q Okay. So your daughter -- your
7 daughter didn't wake up?
8 A I don't think so. I don't remember.
9 MR. MULLIN: Okay. Now we will
10 read the statement marked P-358 and D-52 and
11 D-53, the statement given to the Police
12 Department of Patricia Hjelm. I will read the
13 questions that the police officers typed -- the
14 police officer typed, and you can read the
15 answers.
16 MS. SMITH: Okay.
17 Q Question: Pat, did you
18 voluntarily respond to this agency today?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Question: In your words, tell me
21 what happened that night?
22 A Some noise work me up around 12:30 p.m.
23 I looked at the back of my house and realized
24 the noise was coming from the firehouse. One
25 particular voice I heard was yelling and using
216
1 foul very foul language.
2 Q What did you hear this person say
3 that night?
4 A I heard this person call Tim -- I'm
5 assuming it was called to Tim -- a fucking homo,
6 a CS. I'm not saying that word. He told them
7 that we don't want him in this neighborhood.
8 And this person became more agitated and began
9 to say, "I'll" -- and at that time I didn't wait
10 for him to finish because I was afraid he would
11 do something. So I called the police.
12 Q Who do you think were the
13 individuals involved in this incident?
14 A The firefighters from the firehouse.
15 Q Why do you think this?
16 A I'm assuming they are the only people
17 allowed in the firehouse.
18 Q When you looked at the back of
19 your house, did you see anyone?
20 A No, I didn't, because of the fence and
21 the bushes there.
22 Q How many different voices did you
23 hear yelling that night?
24 A Just one.
25 Q Was it a man's or a woman's?
217
1 A A man's.
2 Q If you heard his voice again, do
3 you think you could recognize it?
4 A It was so full of venom. Maybe. It was
5 a voice in anger, screaming.
6 Q Do you know what caused this
7 incident?
8 A Bias, hate, ignorance, you name it.
9 Q Do you know what caused the
10 yelling that night?
11 A Noise from the firehouse. Tim told me
12 that it woke him up and he went out to complain
13 of -- to tell them, "Hey, Guys, it's 1:00. Hold
14 it down."
15 Q Did you hear Tim say that to the
16 people making the noise?
17 A No, Tim told me that the next day.
18 Q Did you witness anything else that
19 night that happened?
20 A No, just that I made sure the police
21 came; and then I went inside.
22 Q Is there anything else you want to
23 tell me about this incident?
24 A That's all I know.
25 Q Is there anything else you want to
218
1 tell me?
2 A Just that it was frightening.
3 Q Are you aware of any other
4 problems that have occurred between the firemen
5 and anyone?
6 A No, just that when the firemen go in
7 there on a Friday or Saturday night, it's like a
8 club. You know, they're not working or
9 studying.
10 Q Can you describe --
11 MR. BEVERE: Objection. Can we
12 come to sidebar.
13 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
14 discussion is held.)
15 MR. BEVERE: Judge, let me get
16 another version of the statement. I think -- I
17 think she said the -- "like a clubhouse."
18 MR. MULLIN: Oh, "clubhouse."
19 MR. BEVERE: That's the only --
20 MS. SMITH: I'm sorry, mine is cut
21 off.
22 MR. BEVERE: That's the only
23 correction.
24 MS. SMITH: You want to start
25 again before that, Judge?
219
1 MR. BEVERE: That was my only --
2 JUDGE CURRAN: We will apologize
3 to Tracey for having to drag her over here.
4 MS. SMITH: There goes my Oscar.
5 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
6 concluded.)
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
8 Gentlemen, we are just going to back up and
9 continue the reading.
10 MR. MULLIN: Thank you. I will
11 read that question again.
12 BY MR. MULLIN:
13 Q Are you aware of any other
14 problems that have occurred between the firemen
15 and anyone?
16 A No, just that when the firemen go in
17 there on a Friday or Saturday night, it's like a
18 clubhouse. You know, they are not in there
19 working or studying.
20 Q Can you describe those instances
21 to me?
22 A Just noise, loud music, sometimes
23 cursing.
24 Q Is there anything else you want to
25 tell me?
220
1 A That's about it.
2 Q Have I treated -- how have I
3 treated you tonight?
4 A Professional.
5 Q After reading your statement and
6 finding it to contain the truth, will you sign
7 it?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Pat, one more thing. From the
10 time you were up did you ever hear Tim or Peter
11 deVries yell back or do anything?
12 A No.
13 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, at this
14 point we will play the 911 tape of Patricia
15 Hjelm.
16 (Whereupon, an audiotape is
17 played.)
18 MR. MULLIN: That's all we have
19 for today, Your Honor.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. I will
21 note for the record that that tape is the same
22 exhibit number.
23 MS. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor,
24 that's P-390.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: 390.
221
1 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Judge.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Bevere.
3 MR. BEVERE: I am just standing
4 because I thought you were going to excuse the
5 jury at this point.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Let me explain the
7 process to the jury briefly. The defense may in
8 their case, if they choose to, also do readings
9 from Mrs. Hjelm.
10 Okay. Thank you. Ladies and
11 Gentlemen, Mr. Bevere is right; we are going to
12 excuse you a little early today. We would
13 appreciate it if you would be back tomorrow at
14 9:00.
15 MR. BEVERE: Do we want --
16 MR. MULLIN: Should we just do a
17 sidebar?
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
19 (Whereupon, the following sidebar
20 discussion is held.)
21 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry, did we
22 want a different time?
23 MR. MULLIN: We might. I know Mr.
24 Bevere mentioned -- I know he is bringing in a
25 bunch of people for me. So if he needs a later
222
1 start, I just want to let you know I don't
2 object to a 10:00 or 9:30 start. I have no
3 problem.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: What is your
5 request, Mr. Bevere?
6 MR. BEVERE: I have three
7 witnesses coming in for Mr. Mullin tomorrow. I
8 have Officer Ulrich. I have Sergeant, now
9 Lieutenant Amodeo. And I have Lieutenant
10 Malanka. You know --
11 MR. MULLIN: I asked for three
12 firemen in addition to that. I thought they
13 were on schedule.
14 MR. BEVERE: Yeah, I know; but I
15 got that e-mail last night. I don't know I will
16 have them tomorrow. I will definitely have them
17 for Wednesday.
18 MS. SMITH: So nobody tried all
19 day?
20 MR. BEVERE: What?
21 MS. SMITH: All day? Nobody from
22 your office has tried all day?
23 MR. MULLIN: I sent it last night.
24 MR. BEVERE: I mean, I'm working
25 on it, Judge, but --
223
1 JUDGE CURRAN: Let me just
2 understand. How many more witnesses do you
3 have?
4 MR. MULLIN: I hope -- tomorrow I
5 had six lined up, and -- and I hope that they
6 would all come in. I have three firemen and
7 three police officers. That's what I have.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Can you check to
9 see if you can get -- maybe someone from your
10 office has been trying to see if maybe the other
11 three, even if you don't know now.
12 MR. BEVERE: I have actually been
13 doing it, Judge, because I have been talking to
14 Dave Drummeler, I have been talking to the Fire
15 Chief, waiting for somebody to return phone
16 calls. You want to give me a couple of minutes
17 and I will step out into the hallway and see who
18 I have?
19 MR. PARIS: Is there a reason to
20 tell the jury to come in before 9:30 tomorrow
21 or --
22 MR. MULLIN: I have no -- you
23 know, I have no objection.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I mean, if we are
25 only going to have three, they are not going to
224
1 take that long.
2 MR. MULLIN: That's what I'm
3 saying.
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Bring them in at
5 like 10.
6 MR. MULLIN: I would like to know
7 what I have to prepare for tonight.
8 MR. BEVERE: I will let him know.
9 Tell jury 10. If I can get additional witnesses
10 for jury, fine. If we stay until 4:30, we stay
11 until 4:30.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
13 MR. PARIS: Then we should really
14 talk about scheduling.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: We can do that when
16 the jury goes.
17 (Whereupon, sidebar discussion is
18 concluded.)
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Ladies and
20 Gentlemen, so that we don't delay you -- we have
21 some issues that have to be resolved, so we are
22 going to excuse you today. And because we do
23 have issues to be resolved, you are free
24 tomorrow to come in tomorrow at 10, rather than
25 9.
225
1 Okay. And again, please don't
2 discuss the case among yourselves. Please don't
3 discuss it with anyone else.
4 Thank you very much. Off the
5 record.
6 (Whereupon, the jury is excused.)
7 (Whereupon, a brief recess is
8 taken.)
9 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris, if you
10 would just give me the name of the witnesses,
11 just so I'm not --
12 MR. PARIS: Miss Smith just gave
13 me the names of ten Town witnesses.
14 COURT CLERK: Are we on the record
15 now?
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes.
17 COURT CLERK: Okay. I just need
18 one more minute. On the record.
19 MR. PARIS: Miss Smith just gave
20 me the name of ten Town witnesses for whom we've
21 received, apparently, notices in lieu of
22 subpoena. And they are -- this is the order
23 that she had requested them. Is Amodeo number
24 one?
25 MR. MULLIN: No, Ulrich is number
226
1 one.
2 MR. PARIS: Okay. Ulrich, number
3 one. Amodeo, number two.
4 MR. MULLIN: Amodeo is two.
5 MR. PARIS: Okay.
6 MR. MULLIN: And Malanka.
7 MR. PARIS: Malanka.
8 MR. MULLIN: Three.
9 MR. PARIS: And I had Richard
10 Johnson.
11 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
12 MR. PARIS: Matt Kickey.
13 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
14 MR. PARIS: Dan Snyder. Mr.
15 Iacono.
16 MS. SMITH: That's Wednesday.
17 MR. MULLIN: Wednesday is Iacono.
18 MR. PARIS: Okay. Wednesday for
19 Mr. Elwell.
20 MR. MULLIN: Wednesday for Elwell.
21 Wednesday for Chief Walters. And then Wednesday
22 for Chief Corcoran.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: You want Elwell,
24 Walters and Corcoran on Wednesday?
25 MR. MULLIN: Iacono, Elwell,
227
1 Walters and Corcoran.
2 MR. PARIS: Kickey, you said,
3 Tuesday?
4 MR. MULLIN: Kickey, Snyder,
5 Johnson are still on Tuesday.
6 MR. PARIS: Along with Ulrich,
7 Malanka, Amodeo?
8 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
9 MR. PARIS: If we can get them,
10 okay. Well, the policemen, that's not an issue.
11 Just some of these others --
12 JUDGE CURRAN: So would be six for
13 tomorrow?
14 MR. MULLIN: Six for tomorrow.
15 MR. BEVERE: Well, Judge, let me
16 weigh in this because I am the one who is
17 coordinating. I have Ulrich, Amodeo, Malanka
18 lined up for tomorrow.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
20 MR. BEVERE: Richard Johnson is a
21 full-time employee of Secaucus DPW. There will
22 be no problem getting here tomorrow in the
23 afternoon.
24 I spoke to Matt Kickey. Matt
25 Kickey is available Wednesday morning at 9 a.m.
228
1 Dan Snyder, I will call the
2 Secaucus Fire Chief and find out as to Dan
3 Snyder's availability. He was not a witness
4 that I received a notice in lieu of subpoena
5 for. He was a witness that was subpoenaed
6 directly by the plaintiffs. So when I sent out
7 my letters telling them to be available for
8 trial, he is not one of the people I sent a
9 letter to because I did not receive a notice in
10 lieu for him.
11 Spoke to Frank Walters this
12 morning. He is available when I need him.
13 Chief Corcoran is available when
14 I need him.
15 The Mayor, obviously, is
16 available.
17 I have to reach out for Anthony
18 Iacono, but my understanding is -- I'm sure if
19 I -- you know, can get him here -- I don't want
20 to say absolutely but --
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Why do you say the
22 Mayor obviously is available?
23 MR. BEVERE: Because he is around.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: He does not work
25 outside the Town?
229
1 MR. BEVERE: He owns a business,
2 but the business is in Town.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm just trying
4 to --
5 MR. BEVERE: He is typically
6 available; but you know, I'm waiting -- I have
7 to call Dave Drummeler back. So let me call
8 Mr. Drumeler back. He was in the doctor's
9 office. So let me call him back and find out.
10 MR. MULLIN: Judge, I just want to
11 clear up the record. I think we're working here
12 to bring these witnesses in, but our -- the
13 agreement between the lawyers is every day no
14 later than 4 p.m. I and they, the defense
15 counsel, will give each other notice of
16 witnesses we intend to call the next day in the
17 exact order we intend to call them.
18 So at 4 p.m. yesterday I sent an
19 e-mail indicating that I would be calling
20 these -- these witnesses, with the exception
21 that I said, "Chris Snyder," when I meant "Dan
22 Snyder." I left out Wednesday because,
23 actually, I wasn't required to tell Wednesday
24 and I hadn't made my mind up yet. But I
25 yesterday at 4 p.m. sent an e-mail saying
230
1 Richard Johnson, Matt Kickey -- I misspoke on
2 Chris Snyder -- Amodeo, Ulrich and Malanka.
3 The other thing is I told counsel
4 for several days now I have been calling Ulrich,
5 Amodeo and Malanka. I want the record to
6 be clear this is not last minute notice.
7 Finally, I've -- I've issued
8 notices in lieu of subpoena or subpoenas for all
9 these witnesses, so the witnesses, themselves,
10 have been on notice for weeks that they should
11 be ready to come in.
12 That said, obviously, I want to
13 cooperate with counsel here and not be, you
14 know, difficult. I just need to know exactly
15 who we have tomorrow. I want to move the case
16 along.
17 And I want to know exactly when
18 Goldwaser is coming. We have been told
19 Goldwaser is coming Thursday. We got an e-mail
20 saying he was confirmed for Thursday. We're
21 prepared for him on Thursday. So --
22 JUDGE CURRAN: Is he?
23 MR. MULLIN: The other thing I
24 want to say on the record is we may be able to
25 save a whole lot of witnesses, if defense
231
1 counsel and we can sit down and confer and agree
2 to allow certain police reports into Evidence.
3 That would obviate the need to call live
4 witnesses to put those police reports in.
5 So -- and also, the other thing
6 is, Judge, I sent an e-mail on this to counsel.
7 We've -- we've subpoenaed or noticed in lieu the
8 Secaucus employee with knowledge of the job
9 titles, including firefighter titles, held by
10 any -- any of the witnesses we're calling and --
11 and when they held those titles because, as you
12 know, we have special problems. We have some
13 witnesses taking the Fifth here. I need some
14 solid evidence on when the firefighters held
15 these titles, when they were promoted and what
16 other titles, like whether it be Buildings &
17 Ground or DPW. If they will stipulate to that,
18 again, we can save a live witness. I have
19 indicated that to them in an e-mail.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: What about --
21 MR. PARIS: I will take the last
22 thing, okay. Your Honor, frankly, we think that
23 some of this information with regard to the DPW
24 workers, what titles they held, whether they
25 worked for DPW or not, et cetera, frankly, we
232
1 think it's irrelevant. The issue here isn't who
2 held a DPW title or not. And frankly, if that
3 information is presented to the jury as though
4 it was relevant to whether people were acting
5 under color of law, it's only going to confuse
6 the jury.
7 Now, again, none of this is
8 secret. It's not that we're trying to keep it
9 secret. But by the same token, it's not
10 relevant to the jury's consideration. Probably
11 the witnesses are going to know their titles at
12 various points in time. And you know, we can
13 certainly make sure that they're aware. Or we
14 can have that information, perhaps, with Mr.
15 Iacono or someone else. But the point is it
16 really -- if we go through a list, here are all
17 the DPW titles of various firemen, what's the
18 point of that? That's not the issue as to
19 whether you held a DPW title. The test for
20 color of law is very different than that.
21 MR. MULLIN: It goes to many
22 things. One of things, it goes to deliberate
23 indifference. Chief Corcoran fired or
24 suspended -- we seem to struggle over the
25 word -- Chuck Snyder, Jr. from the Police
233
1 Department because of refusing to cooperate with
2 the investigation and because he was
3 undisputedly present at the scene of the
4 incident. That's what he wrote.
5 If someone is a -- an employee of
6 the Department of Public Works, then that means
7 Secaucus had power over them. They had power to
8 suspend them, to fire them or to initiate
9 termination proceedings. Just as Corcoran did,
10 the DPW or the Buildings & Grounds could have
11 fired or suspended or otherwise penalized these
12 employees they had control over.
13 So it goes to my deliberate
14 indifference evidence that none of this action
15 was taken against these men who refused to
16 cooperate, who were clearly identified as
17 present at the time of the incident, not a
18 finger was lifted against them. They showed
19 deliberate indifference. They left these people
20 employed in positions of trust as government
21 employees.
22 The other point is that if
23 someone is -- is a supervisor of Buildings &
24 Grounds, the Department of Public Works of
25 Secaucus at the time he leads other men in a
234
1 riot attacking my clients' house and these men
2 are his subordinates at the Department of Public
3 Works or Buildings & Grounds, he is cloaked with
4 authority. He is acting under color of State
5 law, not only because he is a captain of the
6 Fire Department or former captain with that --
7 that -- you know, with that ora, but also
8 because he is their boss. He is their boss.
9 They report to him in Department of Public Works
10 or Buildings & Grounds.
11 So for those reasons that -- I
12 don't limit myself to those reasons -- in order
13 to show color of State law and/or in order to
14 show deliberate indifference, I -- I -- I want
15 to have this evidence.
16 The other thing is these firemen
17 to a man -- told the police, when they did
18 bother talking to them, when they didn't take
19 the Fifth, we saw nothing, we heard nothing.
20 And I'm simplifying here, but this is what most
21 of them said.
22 If their boss in Department of
23 Public Works, at Buildings & Grounds is Chuck
24 Snyder, Sr., the jury should know that in
25 evaluating their credibility because their boss
235
1 can fire them or demote them or not promote
2 them. A boss has power over people enough to
3 make a subordinate lie. So it's important for
4 the jury to get the whole picture in order to
5 form a proper assessment of the credibility of
6 these firefighters when -- when they're
7 testifying.
8 So for at least those three
9 reasons someone should come here and testify as
10 to the -- the employment status, either as a
11 direct employee of Secaucus or -- and/or as a
12 firefighter of these individuals and when they
13 had those positions because that becomes
14 important.
15 For example, if some of these
16 people who refused to testify, who refused do
17 cooperate with the police are subsequently
18 promoted, in other words, rewarded after they
19 refuse to cooperate with the police, that's
20 something the jury ought to know in assessing
21 deliberate indifference. It's another piece of
22 circumstantial evidence in attempting to reach a
23 very high standard, a very high legal standard.
24 I should be afforded all the circumstantial
25 evidence I can muster.
236
1 And frankly, Your Honor, they
2 should provide this information to me before
3 these people get on the stand. Richard Johnson,
4 Matt Kickey, Dan Snyder, Malanka, Ulrich and
5 Amodeo. An e-mail would be fine. But this
6 information should ideally be provided to me
7 before they get on the stand.
8 But again, I was willing to work
9 out some sort of agreement where in lieu of a
10 live witness this information simply provided to
11 me. Secaucus has all this information; it's
12 almost immediately available to them. And I'm
13 happy to get it in the form of e-mails, which we
14 can then turn into formal stipulations on the
15 record. We just don't have to fuss about it.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Would you be kind
17 enough to give me the names of the individuals
18 in question again? Amodeo, Malanka, Kickey?
19 MR. MULLIN: They are going to
20 be -- this information I want with respect to
21 all of the firefighters who were present at the
22 party on April 24th, 2004. So we have
23 photograph here, and they know who those were.
24 We actually have a list. And they -- the
25 defense counsel know who they are.
237
1 And I think, just to be thorough,
2 we should have that information as to Police
3 Officers Malanka, Ulrich, Amodeo. And we should
4 have it with respect to Iacono, Elwell, Walters
5 and Corcoran, including whether any of those
6 people held positions as volunteer firefighters.
7 Iacono, Elwell, Walters and Corcoran. That's
8 something we obviously need to know on the issue
9 of bias.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Paris.
11 MR. PARIS: Your Honor, again,
12 this -- this concept of deliberate indifference
13 has become such a huge umbrella that counsel is
14 trying to say anything falls within deliberate
15 indifference.
16 Okay. Number one, you know,
17 there will come a day, obviously, where some of
18 the -- the words are going to have to be put up
19 by way of proofs. And we keep hearing about
20 somebody led this mob of individuals. So far
21 there has been nothing to indicate that anyone
22 led a mob of individuals.
23 Putting that aside, again, merely
24 because someone held a position in DPW does not
25 mean that on the night of April 24th, going into
238
1 April 25th that these actions that occurred
2 occurred under color of law. And that's
3 supposed to be the test. And so far there has
4 been absolutely nothing and nothing that's even
5 been proffered here by way of what somebody's
6 title was that would indicate that these actions
7 taken after a party on a Saturday night
8 spontaneously after the men are being asked to
9 please shut the hell up already were taken under
10 color of law.
11 And how it matters whether the
12 people who are acting out this way, as horrible
13 as it was, were DPW employees or whether they
14 were Jersey City employees or Hudson County
15 employees or whatever employees they were --
16 their employment status doesn't mean that their
17 actions were being taken in furtherance of their
18 job duties.
19 So all of this, all of these
20 words are well and good; but they don't relate
21 back to what the required proofs are. And what
22 I'm concerned about is to tell the jury very
23 solemnly that this was a DPW person, this was
24 this person, this was that person, it doesn't
25 mean that what they did or didn't do on the
239
1 evening of the 24th and the 25th was done under
2 color of law.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: I understand that.
4 But as I understand the plaintiffs' argument is
5 in this limited purpose. And correct me, if I'm
6 wrong, Mr. Mullin. At the very minimum the
7 plaintiffs are asking for this information in
8 regard to the individuals -- that's why I asked
9 him to go over the names -- in regard to, for
10 example, the firemen who worked at DPW for whom
11 Mr. Snyder, Sr. was their boss, to use a better
12 term. Certainly, the issue can be raised in
13 regard to credibility, as far as what
14 individuals may or may not say when they're
15 faced with questions regarding their boss.
16 MR. PARIS: But -- but is there
17 anything that would indicate that anything that
18 Mr. Snyder, Sr. did that night was undertaken
19 under color of law?
20 MR. MULLIN: Your Honor, this is
21 not the time for this particular motion. I have
22 an awful lot to say in answer to this.
23 MR. PARIS: Your Honor. Your
24 Honor.
25 MR. MULLIN: This is the -- not
240
1 motion --
2 JUDGE CURRAN: I think what we're
3 trying to do is get all of the information that
4 we need. And then, you know, in this case the
5 special charges or the limiting instructions may
6 be short -- may be longer than the normal jury
7 charge.
8 MR. PARIS: Yeah.
9 JUDGE CURRAN: But I think that it
10 is appropriate for the information to be put on
11 the record. Easy example. You know, if I were
12 to say, "Gee, you know, you're right, no,
13 nothing on the record indicates that Mr. Snyder
14 was operating under color of law," we may as
15 well go home at this point. I mean, that's what
16 the case -- that's why we need the evidence in
17 the case.
18 But certainly, we have already
19 had three witnesses, the two Snyders and
20 Mr. Mutschler, who didn't give us any employment
21 history that can be evidential. So that at the
22 very minimal is needed.
23 MR. PARIS: We will obtain that
24 information, Your Honor.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. Next
241
1 issue.
2 MR. BEVERE: Judge, can I be
3 heard? Because --
4 JUDGE CURRAN: Sure.
5 MR. BEVERE: Because here is -- my
6 problem is more fundamental, and that's with
7 regard to the scheduling here. And I went on
8 the record, I believe it was either last week or
9 the week before, saying that I needed more
10 notice than 12 hours to get people to come into
11 court or 16 hours, whatever it is.
12 There are certain witnesses that
13 work for the Town, and they are under the Town's
14 control between the hours of 9 and 5. And I
15 will have a much easier time getting them here
16 than people who are nothing more than volunteer
17 firefighters and are -- and have other -- and
18 have full-time jobs between the hours of 9 and
19 5.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Let me interrupt
21 you, if I might, Mr. Bevere. Because you all
22 live, breathe this for so long, you know the
23 names you're referring to --
24 MR. BEVERE: Sure.
25 JUDGE CURRAN: -- and I don't. I
242
1 mean, right now we don't really -- as I
2 understand the agreements and whatever, the only
3 real questions we have left are Dan Snyder and
4 Matt Kickey, correct? Everybody else there is
5 an agreement on?
6 MR. MULLIN: Sounds like.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: They will show up,
8 right?
9 MR. BEVERE: I am waiting to talk
10 to Mr. Drumeler to find out about Anthony Iacono
11 and just to confirm with the Mayor.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Right. Okay.
13 Okay.
14 MR. BEVERE: Everybody else I am
15 absolutely producing. Now, I just have to --
16 JUDGE CURRAN: So we just have
17 questions on Snyder?
18 MR. BEVERE: Specific day. Daniel
19 Snyder.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Are there other
21 individuals -- other individuals who are going
22 to be called that I'm just not aware of?
23 MR. BEVERE: Well, I received --
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Firemen --
25 MR. BEVERE: I received several
243
1 notices in lieu of subpoena from Mr. Mullin.
2 But I'm -- I'm being advised now by -- through a
3 discussion that Mr. Paris had with Mr. Mullin
4 that the witnesses he wants are Ulrich, Malanka,
5 Amodeo, Johnson, Kickey, Dan Snyder, Anthony
6 Iacono, Dennis Elwell, Frank Walters and Dennis
7 Corcoran. Now, did I miss anybody?
8 MR. MULLIN: That's who I'm trying
9 to line up for Tuesday and Wednesday.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: Then who are you
11 trying to line up for after that?
12 MR. MULLIN: Well, I haven't lined
13 anybody up after that. It's possible, if we
14 have some sensible discussions, I may be very
15 close to resting because if we can get in, you
16 know, some of these police reports that I think
17 they want in, as well, I don't have to call live
18 witnesses. We can both refer to them during our
19 closing arguments.
20 If we can stipulate to the job
21 titles I am talking about, again, I don't need a
22 live witness.
23 So we're working on our side of
24 the table, working very hard to rap this case up
25 and rest around Thursday so that we can stay on
244
1 schedule with -- with what the Court has told
2 the jury. So that's what we're trying to do.
3 Again, I -- I gave notice of these witnesses
4 days and days ago as far as Malanka, Ulrich,
5 Amodeo.
6 MR. BEVERE: And they're lined up.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Those are not a
8 problem.
9 MR. MULLIN: Sounds like Richard
10 Johnson is not a problem for tomorrow, right?
11 MR. BEVERE: I am waiting for --
12 he works for DPW. I can't imagine why he
13 wouldn't available.
14 I spoke to Matt Kickey. He does
15 not work for the Town; he works for the
16 Prosecutor's Office Task Force here in Hudson
17 County.
18 MR. MULLIN: Let me make life
19 easy. You know --
20 JUDGE CURRAN: So we just get on
21 the elevator and we go down and get him.
22 MR. MULLIN: Yeah.
23 MS. SMITH: Yeah, how hard could
24 that be?
25 JUDGE CURRAN: I mean --
245
1 MR. BEVERE: He actually, I
2 believe, works in North Bergen.
3 MR. MULLIN: Surely, the
4 prosecutor would make him available for trial.
5 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I have him
6 lined up for Wednesday morning at 9.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: That would be fine.
8 MR. MULLIN: Wednesday morning.
9 MR. BEVERE: He is not saying, "I
10 am not coming in."
11 MR. MULLIN: Wednesday morning
12 9:00, no problem. Wednesday morning at 9.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: The only real
14 question --
15 MR. BEVERE: Now, Dan Snyder,
16 Judge, I don't know because I -- I didn't send
17 Dan Snyder a notice because he wasn't one of the
18 witnesses I received a notice in lieu of
19 subpoena for.
20 JUDGE CURRAN: Where does he work?
21 MR. BEVERE: I could look at his
22 deposition. I'm sure he was asked the question
23 where he works in his deposition.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Is he a
25 firefighter?
246
1 MR. BEVERE: He is a firefighter.
2 But as far as his full-time employment --
3 JUDGE CURRAN: No, I got it,
4 right.
5 MR. BEVERE: -- I don't know where
6 he works.
7 MR. MULLIN: Could we have the
8 Chief, Fire Chief call Dan Snyder up and tell
9 him to get to court on, say, Wednesday morning.
10 MR. BEVERE: Well, that's what I'm
11 trying -- I made that call, Judge.
12 MR. MULLIN: How about order him
13 to come to court on Wednesday morning?
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Gee, that
15 undermines your case, doesn't it, Mr. Mullin?
16 MR. MULLIN: We will have to keep
17 that a secret.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Yes.
19 MR. MULLIN: I think the Chief
20 still has little authority over them, although
21 he rarely exercises it, perhaps.
22 MR. BEVERE: Judge, that may be
23 true; but you have to understand --
24 JUDGE CURRAN: I understand.
25 MR. BEVERE: -- I got this
247
1 information today about --
2 MS. SMITH: No, you got it
3 yesterday.
4 MR. BEVERE: No, no, the e-mail
5 said, "Chris Snyder." And I went back to check
6 my records to see if I got -- if I got a
7 subpoena for Chris Snyder.
8 JUDGE CURRAN: Mr. Mullin said
9 that. Well, why don't we put on the record that
10 Mr. Bevere is working as hard as he can to get
11 Dan Snyder, firefighter extraordinaire, here.
12 And that seems to be the only real question.
13 MR. MULLIN: It seems to me,
14 because I need to know what I'm preparing for, I
15 will not be prepared -- I will not prepare for
16 Matt Kickey and Dan Snyder tomorrow. It looks
17 like they are going to bring Matt Kickey and
18 maybe Dan Snyder in Wednesday at 9 a.m. And I
19 will be prepared to go with them on that day.
20 Tomorrow I will be prepared to do Malanka,
21 Ulrich, Amodeo and Johnson. Is that all right?
22 MR. BEVERE: Thank's fine, Judge.
23 That's perfect.
24 JUDGE CURRAN: That makes total
25 sense. Anything else?
248
1 MR. PARIS: Judge.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: How about Thursday?
3 When is Dr. Goldwaser --
4 MR. PARIS: But here is the
5 problem. I am trying to find out when the
6 plaintiffs intend to rest. I really prefer not
7 to bring Dr. Goldwaser in until after the
8 plaintiffs' case is over. So he is available
9 Thursday, but the question is do the plaintiffs
10 have additional witnesses after this group of
11 ten? Now, that's -- that's the question. Are
12 they going to be able to rest?
13 MR. MULLIN: I don't know that at
14 this time.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: Do I look like I
16 was born yesterday, Mr. Paris?
17 MS. SMITH: Exactly.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: I wish I did. I
19 wish I did.
20 MR. PARIS: Tomorrow at 4:00 are
21 we going to get another witness list? You know,
22 I don't know. And that's what we're trying to
23 determine. If -- if they are going to have
24 additional witnesses -- if they are going to
25 have additional witnesses, then perhaps we don't
249
1 need to bring Dr. Goldwaser in Thursday.
2 JUDGE CURRAN: But isn't
3 Dr. Goldwaser unavailable all the rest of next
4 week --
5 MR. BEVERE: He is --
6 JUDGE CURRAN: -- until June 5th?
7 MR. PARIS: I think it's June 4th
8 or 5th, but --
9 MR. BEVERE: I spoke to him on the
10 phone, Judge. He is available the 4th. He is
11 available the 5th. He also said he flies in the
12 morning of the 3rd, overnight flight from JFK.
13 He would prefer not to come in; but if it has to
14 be the 3rd, he could do it the 3rd.
15 JUDGE CURRAN: But then we have
16 the whole of next week for three days that we
17 have until --
18 MR. PARIS: We have four days
19 between now and June 3rd. And we have witnesses
20 and have a case to put on, as well.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Right. Well,
22 that's exactly what I'm saying.
23 MR. PARIS: If they're going to
24 have witnesses -- let's say we put Dr. Goldwaser
25 on on Thursday and they are going to come in and
250
1 say, "Well, we have additional witnesses to put
2 on Tuesday," well if they have witnesses to put
3 on, then we could put Dr. Goldwaser off until,
4 you know, sometime later because we have a bunch
5 of witnesses that we need to put on. So that's
6 what I'm trying to find out. I mean, you know,
7 I don't want to -- I don't want to put a witness
8 on, especially an important witness, during the
9 plaintiffs' case. And that's what I'm trying to
10 get somewhat --
11 JUDGE CURRAN: I'm sorry.
12 MR. PARIS: I am trying to get a
13 reading.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Half a day for
15 Dr. Goldwaser? I am not rushing anybody but --
16 MR. PARIS: I would think. Don't
17 you think, Dan?
18 MR. BEVERE: I would think.
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Why don't I say
20 this. Why don't all of you, as professionals,
21 which I am a sure you are, go over your case
22 tonight, tomorrow, whatever. I know that you
23 will answer as, you know, professionals. If you
24 honestly think you have more witnesses you may
25 call, whatever, then Dr. Goldwaser is not coming
251
1 in on Thursday. He doesn't -- I thought at
2 sidebar you said the 5th, but you --
3 MR. BEVERE: I did. And then when
4 we took a break, Judge, I called him.
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
6 MR. BEVERE: I said, "Doc, you
7 have to work with me here. Can you get here
8 earlier than the 5th," the normal song and dance
9 I have to do every time I deal with a doctor.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: The 3rd or 4th
11 would not be the end of the world. I would say
12 no one on the jury seems to be nervous about
13 leaving. Sometimes when jurors go this long
14 jurors figure it out and start saying, "I have
15 to be out of here." Nobody has indicated that
16 at all.
17 So why don't we say, you know, as
18 I see it now it's unlikely Dr. Goldwaser would
19 have to come in on Thursday. But I'm not making
20 that determination until the plaintiff tells us
21 tomorrow. You know, we also don't know what's
22 going to happen with all these witnesses. Just,
23 you know, it's a lot of bodies to move in and
24 out of here; and it could take longer than we
25 think or someone is a little late or whatever.
252
1 So it looks to me as if it would be unlikely
2 that we'd have to call him for Thursday, but we
3 will decide that first thing tomorrow. Okay.
4 MR. BEVERE: Okay. But Judge, as
5 of right now, because I am going to the phones,
6 as you'd say, you know, Ulrich, Malanka, Amodeo,
7 Johnson, Kickey, Dan Snyder, Iacono, Elwell,
8 Walters, Corcoran, right? That's who we're
9 talking about? Anybody else that you could
10 think of?
11 MR. MULLIN: That's it. For the
12 next two days that's it. And --
13 MR. PARIS: This is the problem.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: His question is --
15 may I ask you this, Mr. Mullin?
16 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
17 JUDGE CURRAN: Is there a
18 possibility, a reasonable possibility that there
19 may be some others? I am not asking you for
20 names.
21 MR. MULLIN: There is a
22 possibility. I don't want to play games. Would
23 I like to rest on Thursday? That's my goal. I
24 would like to rest on Thursday because I'm aware
25 of the -- I am aware of the schedule.
253
1 So here is the problem. I'm
2 worried about if -- what if what these witnesses
3 say requires me to call in a witness I didn't
4 anticipate?
5 JUDGE CURRAN: Right.
6 MR. MULLIN: I don't want to have
7 boxed myself out.
8 MR. BEVERE: Okay. But from my
9 purposes right now --
10 MR. MULLIN: Essentially that's
11 what I'm dealing with.
12 MR. PARIS: Are we essentially on
13 to the police and fire now?
14 MR. MULLIN: Yeah, we are on
15 the -- to the police and fire.
16 MR. BEVERE: Judge.
17 MR. PARIS: Wait. Wait. Wait.
18 Police and fire and?
19 MR. MULLIN: We are on to police
20 and fire and the Town leaders.
21 MR. PARIS: And the Town
22 officials.
23 MR. BEVERE: Judge, my only
24 concern -- and I think Mr. Mullin has answered
25 my question. My question is who do I have to
254
1 get on the phone with now and make sure they can
2 get their keisters here on --
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Right.
4 MR. BEVERE: -- during -- before
5 the end of the week.
6 JUDGE CURRAN: Before you rest in
7 front of the jury.
8 MR. BEVERE: That was my only
9 concern.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: I am guessing we
11 will have an argument or two about evidence.
12 MR. MULLIN: It could happen.
13 JUDGE CURRAN: So, you know, there
14 will be enough.
15 Any other issues?
16 MR. BEVERE: No, I will get
17 information regarding job titles. I have some
18 information right now, actually, just some
19 people that I know -- that I know of.
20 MR. MULLIN: If you can just
21 e-mail it, so I have it. And I will turn it
22 into a stipulation. I would appreciate it.
23 JUDGE CURRAN: I think the request
24 was job titles, responsibilities and dates?
25 MR. MULLIN: Including whether
255
1 you're a firefighter or DPW or Grounds, anything
2 associated with Secaucus.
3 MR. BEVERE: I could tell you on
4 the record right now.
5 MR. MULLIN: I would prefer an
6 e-mail.
7 JUDGE CURRAN: If you e-mail it --
8 MR. MULLIN: It's the firefighters
9 at the party, the ones in the photograph.
10 MR. BEVERE: I can give you the
11 information right -- I could tell you DPW
12 workers are Charles Snyder, Sr. --
13 JUDGE CURRAN: But in fairness, if
14 you e-mail it, then they are going to have a
15 written copy of it and everyone will be --
16 MR. MULLIN: I need titles and
17 dates they assumed those titles.
18 JUDGE CURRAN: Anything else?
19 MR. MULLIN: That's all I have
20 right now, Your Honor.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you. We will
22 see you tomorrow.
23 MR. MULLIN: 10:00 tomorrow?
24 JUDGE CURRAN: 10:00, thank you.
25 MR. BEVERE: And then I guess at
256
1 some point Mr. Mullin and I -- I can't do it
2 right now, but at some point he and I should
3 look at police reports --
4 MR. MULLIN: Yes.
5 MR. BEVERE: -- and decide.
6 MR. MULLIN: We will --
7 MR. BEVERE: We can agree what has
8 to be authenticated through a live, breathing
9 body.
10 MS. SMITH: And Judge, have --
11 have -- I'm doing Goldwaser, so I need to know.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: He is not coming in
13 Thursday.
14 MS. SMITH: He is not coming in
15 Thursday? So we are agreeing he doesn't come
16 until June 3rd?
17 JUDGE CURRAN: That is my
18 understanding.
19 MR. BEVERE: Judge, I thought you
20 had said tomorrow morning --
21 JUDGE CURRAN: They need to know
22 if he is going to come in on Thursday.
23 Mr. Mullin said he wants to rest on Thursday. I
24 thought he meant there may be some things that
25 he has to do on Thursday and then we are going
257
1 to have to have evidence and whatever and it --
2 MR. BEVERE: Motions.
3 JUDGE CURRAN: Thursday is the
4 beginning of the Memorial Day weekend for a lot
5 of people. I mean, obviously, it's Friday; but
6 I would not love to keep the jury late on
7 Thursday. A different day I wouldn't mind.
8 MR. MULLIN: I know.
9 MS. SMITH: So for that reason
10 we're agreeing -- are we going to tell that jury
11 now we are definitely going into June?
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Well --
13 MS. SMITH: Because I need to
14 cross-examine Goldwaser. I am not going to
15 agree he is unavailable. If they decide not to
16 bring him in on Thursday and then their case
17 goes more quickly than they think and we are
18 done on time, he is not -- doesn't get turned
19 into an unavailable witness that I can't
20 cross-examine.
21 JUDGE CURRAN: No, no, no, that's
22 not even a question.
23 MR. BEVERE: As far as reading his
24 deposition?
25 JUDGE CURRAN: Yeah.
258
1 MR. BEVERE: No, no.
2 MS. SMITH: Okay.
3 MR. BEVERE: I mean, Judge, I will
4 be honest with you; if for some reason things go
5 quicker and I blow through witnesses, you
6 know --
7 JUDGE CURRAN: Don't you have to
8 let him know pretty much by tomorrow? Because
9 he has to fly in and -- Dr. Goldwaser.
10 MR. BEVERE: No, he is in
11 Hackensack.
12 JUDGE CURRAN: Why were you
13 talking about he could fly back? From vacation?
14 MR. BEVERE: He is going -- no, he
15 is at a conference.
16 JUDGE CURRAN: Wherever he is.
17 MR. BEVERE: He is like the head
18 of it. He is doing some presentation --
19 JUDGE CURRAN: Okay.
20 MR. BEVERE: -- you know --
21 JUDGE CURRAN: Why don't you say
22 this.
23 MR. BEVERE: -- so --
24 JUDGE CURRAN: Got it. What we're
25 going to do is when we come back after lunch
259
1 tomorrow the decision is going to be made in
2 regard to Dr. Goldwaser one way or the other.
3 I apologize, when you said he is
4 flying in, I was thinking you can't let this
5 guy, you know, have no notice either.
6 Okay. Tomorrow 1:30 or whenever
7 we come back from lunch we will make the
8 determination --
9 MS. SMITH: Thank you, Judge.
10 JUDGE CURRAN: -- as to Dr.
11 Goldwaser.
12 MR. BEVERE: Fair enough, Judge,
13 thank you.
14 JUDGE CURRAN: Thank you.
15 (Whereupon, the proceeding is
16 concluded at 4:20 p.m.)
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3 I, TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, a Certified Court
4 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing is
6 a true and accurate transcript of the
7 stenographic notes as taken by and before me, on
8 the date and place hereinbefore set forth.
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19 TRACEY R. SZCZUBELEK, C.C.R.
20 LICENSE NO. XIO1983
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